Leaving the EU

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I read today that 25000 children arrive here each year as a result of EU free movement rules. I don't know what percentage are English speaking.
The speed with which they learn is usually simply astonishing, and they often put our children to shame. And not just in the English language, immigrant children have often won national spelling and maths competitions, despite quite short periods in the UK.

I watched one documentary about the current mass migration which included following one 16 year old. His application to learn and determination to succeed in both Greece and Germany was beyond impressive. Such individuals are an asset to be highly valued, and this one is far from alone.

I think this is what frustrates me about Pro EU, I can't get past the negatives, they seem to dwarf the positives.

At least we have a vote next month.
There are an abundance of possible negatives on both sides of the argument.

The referendum and all the argument on the subject have been and are a waste of time. It's in the nature and context of the subject that we will vote to remain, sadly settling nothing.
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trex

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there is some consensus regarding the aftermath of Brexit though. For example, international competition will wipe out most areas in our manufacturing like steel, mining and car making, by cheaper labour elsewhere like China, India, Brasil, Iran and Turkey.
my strongest worry is the possibility that we may want to get back to the EU after a period of say 10 years out in the sticks.
 
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tillson

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The speed with which they learn is usually simply astonishing, and they often put our children to shame. And not just in the English language, immigrant children have often won national spelling and maths competitions, despite quite short periods in the UK.
This is what I don't understand. Why is it good that a foreign child comes to the UK, enters an education system that their parents have contributed nothing at all towards and does well? The child's education cost fall onto the shoulders of long term UK residents who have paid into the system for generations and helped to establish the schools colleges and universities over decades and perhaps longer.

When I went through university, my tuition fees were minimal and I graduated without any debt. I suppose that my parents, grand parents and their parents paid for the establishment and running of these institutions over their working lives through taxes and other payments to the state. I don't think that it is fair for a foreign national to enter the established UK educational system having paid nothing towards it.

I mentioned that last week I was in Switzerland. They have a first class medical system that puts the NHS to shame in terms of speed of delivery and quality of care. However it is expensive and unlike the NHS it is not tax payer funded and free at the point of access. Therefore the funding model is different to the NHS in that each Swiss resident pays for the infrastructure, drugs and staff to run their service through fees and insurance. But the principle is the same, Swiss residents pay for their health care just as we pay for our health care, it just that we do it through NI, tax and prescription charges. To me, it would be an inconceivable abuse of generosity if I went to Switzerland with an expectation of free health care and free access to other services which Swiss residents have paid for and are still paying for. I would be filled with shame for asking the Swiss to shoulder my costs. I would also expect the Swiss to refuse point blank and eject me from the country if I could not pay my way.

This is why, I have great difficulty in "celebrating" the fact that foreign nationals do well in our schools, that we hand out free drugs to patients arriving here with an illness, whilst at the same time, our university students are crippled with £9000 per year tuition charges, NICE denies life extending drugs to people who have contributed to their health service for decades. I can't see what is good about these things.

With Turkey set to join the EU I can only see us taking on responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of Turks who will come here. Responsibility that we can't afford, which will damage care, education, the landscape as we build ever more houses and social infrastructure for future generations. I simply can't see any good in this.

I also visited Iceland (no-EU) a while back. I know they went bust a few years ago, but prior to that, per head of population Icelandic people were the wealthiest on the planet. Today, they have bounced back and they are very prosperous enjoying massive international investment, particularly from the US in aluminium production. They have good population control and prove that a country can prosper outside the EU, and I believe that we could do the same.
 
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trex

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investing in a bright child is most profitable for the state. That child will go on to succeed later, get a good job, pay taxes etc.
Clinics in Switzerland accept European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) and invoice you at reduced cost.
Iceland has a lot more exploitable natural resources per capita than we do (geothermal power, fish, hydropower).
The best we could do if we get out of the EU is trying to be like Japan, stop buying Chinese tuts and start investing in quality manufacturing.
 
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flecc

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Why is it good that a foreign child comes to the UK, enters an education system that their parents have contributed nothing at all towards and does well? The child's education cost fall onto the shoulders of long term UK residents who have paid into the system for generations and helped to establish the schools colleges and universities over decades and perhaps longer.
We don't educate children out of the goodness of our hearts, we educate them because it pays, and that's why the drive to higher education. It's ultimately profitable.

So being able to educate the immigrant children is an added opportunity for us. We should be grateful for the opportunity.

Really Tillson, you are learning nothing. Remember what I pointed out about the success of the USA through welcoming mass immigration and our London success due to doing the same very long term?

Our country is full of successful businesses started by immigrants and not short of dying businesses started by Britons. Welcoming new blood can only be a benefit.

N.B. Crossed witn Trex's post making the same point.
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trex

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if you look at the way we educate our children, in 10 year time, our economy will have been overtaken by France, India and almost certainly by South Korea.
 

tillson

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flecc, trex, I accept that investing in a bright foreign child can pay dividends. But for each foreign child with outstanding ability, how many are average, passing through the system and swelling class sizes? How many arrive with or will develop problems absorbing overstretched special resources?

I know the BBC and other such organisations want us to believe that a rich pool of potential talent is coming to the uk, but I believe the reality is different. I know many teachers across a wide variety of subjects in different areas of the uk. Some are family members. The reality on the ground, at the coal face, from the people actually doing the teaching, is that immigration is damaging education. They are also afraid to say this, which is quite simply a disgusting demonstration of the lengths the Pro EU are prepared to go to in order to gag the truth.

I strongly suspect a similar situation in other service areas exists.
 

trex

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I don't know the percentage that needs special help Tillson. When I look at my children's facebook page, their friends are from all over the world. Education is the game changer.
That's the direction the world is going Tillson.
 
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tillson

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Now I see that Cameron is warning us of war breaking out if we leave the EU. Really? Are they going to attack us if we stop paying in? Do we want to be members of a club like that?
 
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shemozzle999

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In or out both sides want to perpetuate the idea of people/children as wealth generating robots to satisfy the greedy few by dehumanizing the human race no matter what the colour of your skin or what religion you believe in.

It is pointless in carrying on in this direction as it has no chance of succeeding.

It will only cause further global misery in the future and the effects of it are now surfacing at an alarmingly fast rate.
 

tillson

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I don't know the percentage that needs special help Tillson. When I look at my children's facebook page, their friends are from all over the world. Education is the game changer.
That's the direction the world is going Tillson.
It's good that your children's Facebook friends are made up of a range of different nationalities. It doesn't alter what I said though.

We can and must put the brakes on. Quitting the EU will be putting pressure on the brake pedal.
 
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trex

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these brakes will also affect millions of less well off people who work in manufacturing, mining and food production industries.
the winners are the usual billionaires - just ask yourself how much tax the likes of Branson and Soros have paid before becoming billionaires.
 
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flecc

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In or out both sides want to perpetuate the idea of people/children as wealth generating robots to satisfy the greedy few by dehumanizing the human race no matter what the colour of your skin or what religion you believe in.
I think that's an unnecessarily gloomy view. Wealth is not only financial, it's also cultural and much of our education is in that other direction. Some 70% in university are studying the arts, not the sciences.

And these immigrant children will no doubt also enrich us culturally and scientifically, just as their ancestors enriched the world in these ways when Britons were little more than savages.
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shemozzle999

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The parents (ancestors) of these immigrant children aren't worried about wealth or culture they are only calling on their inbuilt natural human instincts of survival and that can not be genetically engineered no matter how hard governments may try.

I suggest you try looking at alternative media sources that do report what is happening in the real world.
 
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Petty

Finding my (electric) wheels
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I think everyone has an opinion based on two elements of the EU, migration and EU funding, what about the bigger picture?
 

tillson

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I think that's an unnecessarily gloomy view. Wealth is not only financial, it's also cultural and much of our education is in that other direction. Some 70% in university are studying the arts, not the sciences.

And these immigrant children will no doubt also enrich us culturally and scientifically, just as their ancestors enriched the world in these ways when Britons were little more than savages.
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The tens of thousands of unskilled young men flooding into Europe will not enrich us culturally. Many have cultural beliefs that are 1000 years behind western culture. Germany are seeing this in their cities, but of course this is being swept under the carpet because it is incompatible with the EU agenda.
 

shemozzle999

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Immigration isn't the problem, it is the cause of immigration that should be addressed by the politicians but they are reluctant to address it as I fear that the answers to the problem might be found sitting on their own doorstep.
 
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flecc

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Many have cultural beliefs that are 1000 years behind western culture.

Germany are seeing this in their cities,
On arrival, true, but a very large proportion of the immigrant's children drop these beliefs, often to the distress of their parents. That only happens when they grow up here, another reason why I welcome these youngsters.

The number of the children who go in the opposite direction is a minute proportion, easily dealt with when necessary.

Having imported over 3 million Muslim Turks many decades ago and seeing how well they have integrated, Germany isn't worried.
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D8ve

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The tens of thousands of unskilled young men flooding into Europe will not enrich us culturally. Many have cultural beliefs that are 1000 years behind western culture. Germany are seeing this in their cities, but of course this is being swept under the carpet because it is incompatible with the EU agenda.
Please check you history before bold assertion
In the past 200 years we have had implement, burning as European execution methods. Petty treason a capital offence. Many of the middle eastern ideals were far in advance of ours.
As for knee capping it's just a modern variant on hamstringing etc.
The U.K. Is not perfect nor is Syria. Both have good and bad people in them.
 
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tillson

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Please check you history before bold assertion
In the past 200 years we have had implement, burning as European execution methods. Petty treason a capital offence. Many of the middle eastern ideals were far in advance of ours.
As for knee capping it's just a modern variant on hamstringing etc.
The U.K. Is not perfect nor is Syria. Both have good and bad people in them.
That was hundreds of years ago. We don't do it any more, we've grown up and moved on. Why would we want to wind the clock back and import cultures that still believe in and support acts that we gave up way beyond living memory? In essence, what you are suggesting is that it's OK to carry out FGM in our modern society because a few hundred years ago we killed Guy Fawkes in a particularly barbaric way.

Take the Halal slaughter of animals for instance. There is absolutely no place for this unnecessarily cruel and barbaric practice in our society. Our governments is so weak they run away from tackling it. Such is their impotence that they won't even introduce measures to label meat produced in this horrific way. This creeping acceptance of alien and unacceptable practice needs to be stamped out. An un-stunned & un-anaesthetised animal having its throat sliced open because it's supposed to hear a prayer as it dies a terrible agonising death? Absolutely no place for this and other such, "culture" in the UK.
 

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