by virtue of being a member of the EU, we have signed up to the EMU and SGP since their inception, 1998. Lots of people thought that we could pick and choose after hearing John Major's 'subsidiarity clause' but we can't and don't. Our economic policies are modeled on the Germans but our problem is summed up in paragraph 10 of the above report: a large proportion of youngsters lack basic skills, the proportion of jobless (or low work intensity) families is the highest in the EU, high proportion of women working part time and high indebtedness because of housing cost.
Leaving the EU
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Summit meeting conclusions:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/EUCO-Conclusions_pdf/
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/EUCO-Conclusions_pdf/
The hero returns from marathon negotiations.....yeh! It was all agreed in advance but if it was settled in 10 minutes Cameron wouldn't have appeared the returning hero with a package to keep us in.
All the showboating does the YES campaign wonderful publicity and already non deciders are being swayed.
I think we should stay in but this Cameron deal is to my mind an irrelevance.
KudosDave
All the showboating does the YES campaign wonderful publicity and already non deciders are being swayed.
I think we should stay in but this Cameron deal is to my mind an irrelevance.
KudosDave
Thanks Shemozzle. Just read through and no surprises or "rabbits out of the hat". Basically a reaffirmation of the existing situations with the minor tweaks that we already knew about. As KudosDave remarked, this Cameron renegotiation is irrelevant to any decision.
I remain strongly in favour of remaining in the EU and still wish we had become a co-operative full member and never renegotiated anything. The EU would have been far stronger in consequence and the euro with the strength of our currency added could have been as dominant a world currency as the dollar. A missed opportunity that can never be repeated.
.
C
Cyclezee
Guest
I find the prospect of the UK leaving the EU and Donald Trump becoming US president rather scary to say the least, add to that the Syrian conflict, refugee crisis etc., and I wonder if we the potential for a perfect storm?
Can't understand why he bothered with all these so called renegotiations. He asked for very little and didn't even get that.If he feels so strongly that we should be in he should just have tried to persuade us. As it is I think he is in danger of being seen as a fraud who never really tried
Cameron has done a good job. You should pay attention to the details in the document. The line 'this Decision will take effect on the date the Government of the United Kingdom informs the Secretary-General of the Council that the United Kingdom has decided to remain a member of the European Union.'means that if we leave the EU, our borders remain fully open in the next two years. If we stay, Cameron may be able to partially control who can come and who can claim benefits for the next 7 years.
I agree, but he made a trap for himself when he promised before the general election that if elected he would renegotiate and have a referendum.
Having made that promise he had no option, despite knowing that many of the EU member countries had already said "no way" in response to his announcing a renegotiation intention back then.
Basically the renegotiation has been nothing more than a face-saving exercise, a politician in a fix being helped out of his trap by sympathetic fellow politicians, without them losing out to any degree. Pointless though, since the outcome persuades no-one either way.
.
I dislike this attitude that if you have an opposing point of view you are a daydreamer/live in an unreal world/don't look at the facts etc. It's very demeaning to be accused of being a airhead just because your view is different and I must say I have had it thrown at me by mainly left wing 'I vote Labour therefore I am a thinker and you are not' folk all of my grown up life.
You pro's don't have a monopoly on intelligent thought you know.
Agree with you Flecc. I don't think he expected to win, so was the left with no option. But he could at least have tried to get some meaningful concessions. As you say he Knew the others would not give way on what he wanted. In which case he should have been honest about it. I think the British people are a bit fed up of the spin, and may end up voting to leave for the wrong reasons
Maybe, but maybe not.
The worst possible outcome would be a 51% to 49% vote to stay in. It would settle nothing and the arguments and desires for leaving or renegotiation would continue ad nauseum.
Either way, we need a really decisive result for calm and stability.
.
The two year notice period means eastern Europeans are still free to enter as much as they like legally and get full benefits. The benefits restriction measures just agreed for us are automatically cancelled the moment we vote to leave, so we'll have to continue to pay. This is is last night's agreement.
.
What if we stick two fingers up to that and stop paying them anything? What will they do, throw us out of the EU?
I made no comments on intelligence or day dreaming. I repeat that the anti side rarely produce facts regarding the advantages of leaving. What they mostly do is rage and fume in various ways about the evils of the EU.I dislike this attitude that if you have an opposing point of view you are a daydreamer/live in an unreal world/don't look at the facts etc. It's very demeaning to be accused of being a airhead just because your view is different and I must say I have had it thrown at me by mainly left wing 'I vote Labour therefore I am a thinker and you are not' folk all of my grown up life.
You pro's don't have a monopoly on intelligent thought you know.
Whether true or not, that's negativity, I don't want to accompany negative people into an unknown future. If anyone has substantial positive information on how we will definitely survive better by leaving, I'd like to know it.
.
We will have done huge damage to our international reputation, by making it clear that no-one can trust any agreement we make with others.
And the credit rating agencies like Standard and Poors would further downrate us, meaning an immediate rise in the cost of our huge national debt.
.
It may damage our reputation with countries which stand to gain from bleeding our welfare and health systems dry. But they are countries who's people tend to offer us very little, so who cares?
Surely if we stop these spongers from coming here and hence reduce our welfare bill, wouldn't that be looked at favourably by credit rating agencies? I thought that a well a aged welfare budget was a positive in the eyes of these organisations.
No, it's about reliability. Walking out on the numerous treaties we've signed up to with the EU would have a terrible international effect and that's nothing to do with any countries "bleeding us".
It's the countries we need to sign trade deals with if we walk out of Europe that we need to trust us for such deals. And the EU wouldn't sign us up to EFTA if we walk out of the EU without notice. Don't forget that half our exports go to the EU but only a small fraction of the EU's exports go to the UK, so they can hold out as long as they like and insist we serve our notice.
Also we have to continuously borrow to service our national debt since we are in negative balance. After welshing on the EU agreement our rating would be sharply marked down and lenders would insist of the higher interest rates incurred as a result, making our debt position worse.
That's the system, and the international community are no more going to change it for us than the EU were going to drastically change EU rules to suit us.
.
But that's simply not true. There are 11 pages in this thread and a goodly portion of the threads argue for leaving. Do you really perceive all those opinions to comprise just 'rage and fume'? Whether you agree or not, I find it quite amazing that you (and others before you) hold that opinion about all those who have given their time to argue sensibly and logically about leaving.