Leaving the EU

[flecc]

I don't think that David Cameron actually made the decision that he was going to wage a propaganda war.
Surely his aim was to get the best deal that he could in order to pursuade the British public to stay in the EU? The fact that he hasn't managed to get that deal doesn't seem to me to be due to any lack of trying on his behalf, rather a reluctance by the EU to give in to his demands. And his demands have been shown to be the demands of a lot of the British public - to stem immigration with all it's implications, to return some voting, judicial and sovereign rights to us from EU hands and to give us a fair deal within the Eurozone.
He seems to me to have worked damned hard in the face of impossible circumstances and I don't suppose it should surprise anyone that he is now making the best of a bad job, (which people will generally see through).

In reply to your first sentence, I'm quite sure he knew at the outset that Europe would never agree to what the anti-EU British really wanted and that whatever he did get would have to be spun.

But I fully agree with all the rest of your post since he cannot be blamed for the rather negative outcome. It was always going to be thus.

My criticism is that in trying a bit too desperately to spin the result to date, he's reinforcing the anti movement. I think it would have been wiser to delay any comments until the more final stages nearer to the vote.

Then, in a more neutral atmosphere and with the help of the sympathetic EU members, he could pull a rabbit out of the hat with a surprise gain to swing the final vote. He might yet try that, but he's made it more difficult now.
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[Croxden]

I don't think that David Cameron actually made the decision that he was going to wage a propaganda war.
Surely his aim was to get the best deal that he could in order to pursuade the British public to stay in the EU? The fact that he hasn't managed to get that deal doesn't seem to me to be due to any lack of trying on his behalf, rather a reluctance by the EU to give in to his demands. And his demands have been shown to be the demands of a lot of the British public - to stem immigration with all it's implications, to return some voting, judicial and sovereign rights to us from EU hands and to give us a fair deal within the Eurozone.
He seems to me to have worked damned hard in the face of impossible circumstances and I don't suppose it should surprise anyone that he is now making the best of a bad job, (which people will generally see through).

I was with you till you said "He seems to have worked dammed hard", I don't think so.

 

[oldtom]

The EU is probably the greatest thing ever to happen to European nations frequently at war over centuries. The notion that neighbours could live harmoniously had never been disseminated across large numbers of countries until the latter end of the 20th century and the early part of the 21st.

For all its faults the EU has been the greatest stabilising influence across the continent ever and whatever the costs incurred, they don't come anywhere near the cost of financing a major war, either in strict monetary terms or far more importantly, in human terms.

Unfortunately, due to the very deliberate mis-reporting or non-reporting of facts by the British media, the proletariat has been denied a proper understanding of what has really been happening over the last 40 years. For many, the jingoism broadcast by the powerful, corporate media has provided a means to blame somebody for all the ills in British society. That somebody, in this case, is the EU. The tory party currently running, (ruining), this country just love to make political capital out of our membership of the EU, proclaiming that all our ills are the fault of the nasty Germans, French, Italians, etc.

It wasn't the EU which decided to destroy the British car industry, coal or steelmaking. The EU didn't order the UK to dismantle all the great state-run institutions and give them away to rich corporations. All these decisions were made by tories and not one of those acts of social vandalism or destruction has ever had any motive in the interests of ordinary people - all were committed in order to provide incredible wealth for small minorities, all friends of the tory party, indeed many actual parliamentary tories themselves.

Introducing new laws to criminalise trade union strikes and to make ballots almost impossible while supporting the immorality of zero hours contracts, unpaid apprenticeships plus an expressed desire to abolish the human rights act and change H&S regulations describe exactly what the tory party is about and always has been. All these things have been born out of their ideology and hatred for the lower classes, the sick, the disabled, the elderly and the unemployed they created.

While they have been raping the nation, they have ensured that their friends in banking may continue to pay themselves indecent salaries plus even more indecent bonuses. Their other corporate friends have been allowed to escape paying taxes to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds while we have tens of thousands surviving thanks to food banks in this second decade of the 21st century! People have died as a direct result of tory dogma over the 'fit to work' and 'bedroom tax' policies but neither their parliamentary party nor the disgusting people who vote for them give a toss.

As for the tory line on the EU and even worse, the UKIP view, it's not difficult to understand their hatred for the concept and for Britain's membership. The whole concept of the EU is based, (very loosely), on democracy and relies on a voting structure of very disparate nations and their needs and ambitions. The whole system (rather than the people) is essentially socialist, therefore the desires of the richest and most powerful are constrained within the general structure and aims of the organisation. Many rules and strategies are in place to ensure the greater good of all rather than what suits one particular country. The main players gave up their currencies to demonstrate their commitment to the principle of union with few exceptions.

The EU will survive and prosper with or without the UK but we have nothing to look forward to by leaving the union. Any foolish notions to the contrary are simply another part of the media reporting distortion on behalf of the tory party, to be believed by the simpletons who vote for the fascist murderers and are therefore accessories before the fact, to use an old-fashioned expression.

Tom

 

[mike killay]

Perhaps we should ban politics from this Forum.

 

[flecc]

It wasn't the EU which decided to destroy the British car industry, coal or steelmaking. The EU didn't order the UK to dismantle all the great state-run institutions and give them away to rich corporations. All these decisions were made by tories and not one of those acts of social vandalism or destruction has ever had any motive in the interests of ordinary people - all were committed in order to provide incredible wealth for small minorities, all friends of the tory party, indeed many actual parliamentary tories themselves.

Quite true, while since 1997 our version of democracy has offered us just variations on Conservatism as the only electable possibilities.

Such is the confidence with this status quo that as soon as a large section of the public elect a genuine socialist to a position of power and influence as leader of the opposition, all the allied forces are mustered to discredit him with every possible lie and distortion employed.
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[flecc]

Perhaps we should ban politics from this Forum.

Why? This is the Charging Post forum, for any subject not necessarily connected in any way with e-biking.

Since the title of this thread that I started is political, no-one is being tricked into entering it, or even into the Charging Post forum. Free choices for free speech.
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[Lancslass]

nor the disgusting people who vote for them give a toss.

Tom

A bit strong methinks, and I for one, am a bit unhappy with that comment TBH.

 

[Lancslass]

Why? This is the Charging Post forum, for any subject not necessarily connected in any way with e-biking.

Since the title of this thread that I started is political, no-one is being tricked into entering it, or even into the Charging Post forum. Free choices for free speech.
.

Nothing wrong with talking politics but it shouldn't be beyond the means of communication for intelligent people to speak respectfully of others on the forum.

As I have said before on this very thread, having a different point of view from another doesn't make that person stupid or disgusting, they simply have a different point of view.

Just keep it polite and respectful folks.

 

[flecc]

having a different point of view from another doesn't make that person stupid or disgusting, they simply have a different point of view.

Or as some might say, they simply have a stupid or disgusting point of view.
.

 

[mike killay]

I am biting my tongue and will say no more

 

[trex]

YouGov have a poll on the EU referendum at 56/44.
It looks like we are going to vote to leave the EU.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/04/eu-referendum-leave-leads-nine/
What now? Will there be a rush in the next two years before the doors close?

 

[JohnCade]

I doubt it, and after the general election polls I don’t think anyone takes them too seriously. When the reality of what would happen if we did leave bites, and the stark choice is made. Then just like the Scots the UK will in all probability vote to stay with nurse for fear of something worse.

Of course Dave will almost certainly go if the vote is for out whatever he says now. That might make a difference as the Tories are hardly loved, just more electable than the opposition in the minds of a majority of the public; and that’s one of the troubles with plebiscites. It’s easy to call them but no one really knows or can predict the reasons why people vote the way they do….

 

[Lancslass]

I doubt it, and after the general election polls I don’t think anyone takes them too seriously. When the reality of what would happen if we did leave bites, and the stark choice is made. Then just like the Scots the UK will in all probability vote to stay with nurse for fear of something worse.

Of course Dave will almost certainly go if the vote is for out whatever he says now. That might make a difference as the Tories are hardly loved, just more electable than the opposition in the minds of a majority of the public; and that’s one of the troubles with plebiscites. It’s easy to call them but no one really knows or can predict the reasons why people vote the way they do….

 

[Lancslass]

I think the significant thing about the polls is that they have all started to go in the direction of favouring exit since David Cameron's announcement about the deal he has secured with the EU. It can't be disguised that that deal is very poor and the public recognise that fact. I honestly think that some 'don't know' voters were waiting to see what he would come up with and now they see the results they are thinking of exit.
Maybe once the polls show a significant tendency towards exit, the EU may start to panic a bit, not because they are bothered about us leaving the EU as such but because of the effect that breaking up the union would have on an already crumbling institution. It may just be a defining moment for the EU on top of the Greek debacle, the weak and struggling euro and the immigration issue.

 

[trex]

I watched Guy Verhofstadt on BBC2 yesterday, he explains clearly why the EU needs ever closer political, economic and defense union for the foreseable future.
@Lancslass - I don't see the EU as crumbling. The EU is the right solution for continental Europe, although faced with formidable problems to solve, they are the only credible solution and maybe sooner than many predict, will have a seat on the UN security Council.

 

[JohnCade]

I think the significant thing about the polls is that they have all started to go in the direction of favouring exit since David Cameron's announcement about the deal he has secured with the EU. It can't be disguised that that deal is very poor and the public recognise that fact. I honestly think that some 'don't know' voters were waiting to see what he would come up with and now they see the results they are thinking of exit.
Maybe once the polls show a significant tendency towards exit, the EU may start to panic a bit, not because they are bothered about us leaving the EU as such but because of the effect that breaking up the union would have on an already crumbling institution. It may just be a defining moment for the EU on top of the Greek debacle, the weak and struggling euro and the immigration issue.

I thought for a moment you meant the British union. Because a vote to leave would open up the UK break up scenario again. The Scots and Welsh do not want to leave the EU and they have done better from it financially than parts of England. So it would be the reverse side of the last time when the unionists said that the Scots would have to re apply to the EU if they voted out of the UK.

They would consider that England had left the EU not them, and they would want another referendum on independence which they would get and win this time. That will also become more widely known as the time approaches and will play for the staying in camp. Most of the anti EU sentiment is emotional and much of it based on misinformation. But people vote for self interest in the end and emotion is usually put aside when they pick up the pencil.

 

[Lancslass]

I'm sure your right about Scotland but it would be a long road for them to tread. They would have to rejoin the EU and that would be a lengthy process I imagine. They would presumably have to be part of the eurozone, since all new entrants now have to adopt the euro. I don't know how it would work for them, it's one of the many unknowns that would result in our exit.

I fear the unknowns, I'll be honest. But it shouldn't be that fear that makes us vote to stay in.

Is it just sentiment that would lead to an exit vote? I'm not sure about that. I am pretty clear headed about how the common market has changed to become the European union. I have lived through it and seen and experienced all its changes and certainly my heart says "no". But I have very clear reasons as to why I don't like it the way it is. I can't speak for others of course.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Leaving the EU...I think that Cameron made a mistake on offering this referendum in the first place,UKIP and his own euro sceptics forced it upon him and now he regrets it.
He is going round cap in hand to every European country,you can imagine the conversation....'look please give me something to take back home,to justify my trip and give me something to sell to the voters to make sure we stay in' But he hasn't been brave,he hasn't asked for enough and I am concerned it will be seen as a sham.
If we have an Out vote,who is going to do the work of renegotiating all the individual trade agreements and unpicking the EU laws,it will be a massive task. I am sure Cameron won't want that task and who is up to it from Labour?
My business sells to every EU country,usually direct to consumers...it is not common knowledge that not all EU countries have the same VAT limits,the original 5 are euro 100,000 but some of the newer entrants are only 30,000, at current exchange rates that's low £20k. I had a lady turn up from HMRC saying that I had to VAT register in 17 countries if I wanted to continue trading with them. A seller from say Belgium can trade £73000,over euro 100,000,into the UK without being registered here.
Cameron should be asking for harmonisation of VAT rates throughout the EU,that would be fair,but he knows he won't get it.
There are literally dozens of similar examples of where the UK is in the EU under a disparity of membership,I am sure the French got a better deal out of the common agricultural policy,the Spanish and Dutch out of the fishing etc etc.
Our politicians in the past,Heath when he took us in on unfair terms,we were desperate to join the club.Blair would give anything as long as he got something out of it personally,what was the agreement that idiot Brown signed in Lisbon,it was dismissed as just tidying things up....I bet we lost out.
The only politician who stood up to these Brussels crooks was Maggie Thatcher,for once the French understood the word 'None'
But Cameron cannot undo years of imbalance, I am sure our input is unfair relative to what we get out.
However,having said the foregoing I would still vote to stay in. On a defence level,Putin clearly has ambitions of resurrecting the old USSR,picking back the small EE countries one by one. Our own defences are poor now,we need combined NATO and EU,if we leave the EU it may break up NATO,that would be dangerous.
Even though we are in on unfair terms that is still better than being out,but keep the £,that is our sole independent power.
What concerns me is that the unemployable in this country and the hangers on in the benefits sysltem have great scapegoats in the hard working migrants,who do jobs they don't want to do anyway. They grab hold of the Out campaign,as to the solution to their poor rewarded life and think that a vote Out will bring them the pot of gold without having to work for it.
I should be in a position to make an informed judgement,but I must say that the info to make such a decision has been inadequate to date. Maybe we will get more info as we close the referendum date but can we trust that info?
Fear of the unknown for most people will,IMHO,keep us in.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

Most of the anti EU sentiment is emotional and much of it based on misinformation. But people vote for self interest in the end and emotion is usually put aside when they pick up the pencil.

I spend quite a lot of time in the company of other European nationals and it seems it's only the English who constantly complain about and blame Europe.

It's to do with commitment, I think - perhaps a bit like the old-fashioned notion of marriage where most people stuck together for better or for worse. The UK never fully committed to Europe by refusing to join the common currency yet the French ditched the Franc, the Germans the Mark, the Spanish the Peseta and the Italians the Lira. Is it any wonder that the other main players find it difficult to accept British demands when they all know we have never attempted to fully integrate with the other nations and we continually threaten to exit the union if we can't have our own way?

There seems to be some kind of perverse desire in the UK for the common currency to go bust yet it has steadfastly remained fairly constant through thick and thin, even after bailing out the Irish, the Greeks and several others who failed to get their house in order to comply with common currency arrangements.

This country should be just as much an economic powerhouse as Germany and it would be, had it not been for the corrupt tory party and their selfish supporters destroying all the major industries required to compete in a global marketplace. It offends me to hear people blaming other nations for the state of Britain today when the fault lies squarely with all those who support a party that creates unemployment as a weapon and believes nail bars, American-based fast food outlets and coffee shops are all that's needed alongside IT consultancies to substitute for the absence of large-scale exporting industries.

The lot of the British people will not be improved by exiting the EU but the means to change things for the better lies with the electors. This country desperately needs to be rid of the current, fascist government comprised of inbreds bereft of any humanity.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Old Tom....I am proud of the £,it seems important that we have control of our own finances,it seems that the EU is too vast to have one currency to cover all 27 countries. Greece had control of their finances when the Drachma had 23% interest rates,when they joined the EU the rate went down to 3%,it was like giving an alcoholic a brewery and all the beers were low cost,the result was,in hindsight,inevitable.
Most of my German customers constantly moan about buying from me in £, but they still keep buying,hehe!!!!
KudosDave