Leaving the EU

[Lancslass]

Indeed, a repeat of the Scottish referendum tactics.

However, I see more facts coming from the pro EU side and far more emotion from the anti EU side.
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OK, this has all been said before on this thread but...
Fact, the laws set by our own elected government are frequently overridden by EU law. We will have the opportunity to create and live by our own set of rules. The laws will be of relevance to the UK rather than some botched together set of regulations created to keep 28 culturally different countries happy.

Fact, we will be able to regulate out own borders to decide who comes into the country and when.

Fact, when Albania and Turkey and Kosovo gain entry (and they will one day), we won't be asked to subsidise them by billions of pounds/Euros as we have done the likes of Hungary, Bulgaria and other eastern European members, whilst they sort out their individual non tax paying black markets.

Fact, we will be free to create our own trade deals without the restrictions of the EU. We will also be able to restrict cheap supplies of steel/coal or whatever to save our ailing industries, without going cap in hand to the EU first, only to be told we can't do that.

Fact, we will be able to rid ourselves of some ridiculous EU regulations, often created to assist French farmers and other countries nuances, which stifle business competition in this country and create so much red tape.

Fact, we won't have to pay billions of our own tax payers money for the expensive and unnecessary gravy train that has EU officials shuttling between Brussels and Strasbourg on a weekly basis (for some archaic reason).

Fact, despite the scare mongering about security issues if we leave the EU, it is NATO and the United Nations that have secured European peace since WWII, not the EU.

Probability, the EU is crumbling currently and I believe we are better off getting out now, negotiating our own terms, rather than waiting for the euro and migration problems to crush the EU with us still a part of it.

Now I know there are arguments for and against all of the above but this isn't an emotional rage or a rose coloured spectacles attitude. These are genuine reasons why I'd prefer to be out than in. I simply want to regain control over our own laws, our borders, our trading conditions and our sovereignty and I don't want to be part of an ever expanding bureaucracy that will include countries with which we have very little in common.

 

[flecc]

OK, this has all been said before on this thread but...
Fact, the laws set by our own elected government are frequently overridden by EU law. We will have the opportunity to create and live by our own set of rules. The laws will be of relevance to the UK rather than some botched together set of regulations created to keep 28 culturally different countries happy.

Fact, we will be able to regulate out own borders to decide who comes into the country and when.

Fact, when Albania and Turkey and Kosovo gain entry (and they will one day), we won't be asked to subsidise them by billions of pounds/Euros as we have done the likes of Hungary, Bulgaria and other eastern European members, whilst they sort out their individual non tax paying black markets.

Fact, we will be free to create our own trade deals without the restrictions of the EU. We will also be able to restrict cheap supplies of steel/coal or whatever to save our ailing industries, without going cap in hand to the EU first, only to be told we can't do that.

Fact, we will be able to rid ourselves of some ridiculous EU regulations, often created to assist French farmers and other countries nuances, which stifle business competition in this country and create so much red tape.

Fact, we won't have to pay billions of our own tax payers money for the expensive and unnecessary gravy train that has EU officials shuttling between Brussels and Strasbourg on a weekly basis (for some archaic reason).

Fact, despite the scare mongering about security issues if we leave the EU, it is NATO and the United Nations that have secured European peace since WWII, not the EU.

Probability, the EU is crumbling currently and I believe we are better off getting out now, negotiating our own terms, rather than waiting for the euro and migration problems to crush the EU with us still a part of it.

Now I know there are arguments for and against all of the above but this isn't an emotional rage or a rose coloured spectacles attitude. These are genuine reasons why I'd prefer to be out than in. I simply want to regain control over our own laws, our borders, our trading conditions and our sovereignty and I don't want to be part of an ever expanding bureaucracy that will include countries with which we have very little in common.

How I wish all the anti EU arguments were as sensible and rational as yours, many could learn from you.

Today we've thankfully also gained another entirely rational and honest argument for leaving. Although I disagree with much of what you and Michael Grove are saying, his 1500 word statement is a sincere and honest expression of his views which demands respect.

It can be read in its entirety on this link
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[Kudoscycles]

I think I am voting IN,but honestly I don't know why,probably just the devil you know syndrome.
But on Andrew Marr this morning I must say that Nigel Farage was very eloquent,succinct,answered questions on the point,he was very impressive.
Cameron was woolly,talked politician vague generalisations,avoided direct questions even when pressed,not convincing.
If Boris Johnson does come out for OUT,he is also a direct speaking guy,will be impressive on interview.
I thought it was a done deal that we would stay IN but the IN camp are going to have to come up with more persuasive arguments than vague scare tactics or we will leave.
If we leave I can see the whole EU project coming under stress,which is a good reason to stay in,to avoid that stress....this project has kept us war free in Europe for my lifetime.
If we leave,the Germans are going to want trade agreements asap,we buy too many German cars in the UK for Merkel to want to lose our business.
IMHO I think Cameron should have been braver and asked for much more,a reduction in our contributions,freedom to make our own laws,break from the human rights court,freedom to make our own employment laws,freedom to veto anything we don't like.....I don't think he appreciated what a strong hand he had,the rest don't want us to leave fearing a break up afterwards.
If he had asked for more,we would definitely stay in,now I am not sure which way the vote will go....I think it will be decided by emotion and persuasion not facts.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

I think I am voting IN, but honestly I don't know why

I know exactly why I'm voting to stay in.

For me the whole issue of EU membership comes down to one simple question, "does the end justify the means?"

The end which so many fear is one of union into a country called Europe. I believe that is a desirable and sensible objective in the world that has developed now. However, it can only be achieved by a degree of dictatorship, since getting numerous parties to agree democratically on all details of such a single country is impossible.

Once achieved, the EU Commission which dictates the course to union will disband since it will have no further function and the European Parliament will democratically rule. That's why we have a European Parliament which the Commission is answerable to, in preparation for the day it assumes full rule.

Therefore I'm happy to put up with the necessary degree of dictatorship to achieve what I see as a desirable objective.

That leaves only the question from others, why is that objective desirable. My answer is that we are increasingly in a world of very big and powerful players and we need to be part of one of them for our own future protection, welfare and living standards.

The argument that we are a world power anyway I see as a nonsense. We in the UK have just 0.9% of the world's population. We can't even buy the planes for the two second rate aircraft carriers we are building, so we are mothballing one and hoping to buy enough for one to be active. Our defence forces are cut to the point that Greece with less than one fifth of our population has a greater military strength. And our productivity is very low compared with the nations we need to compete with.

None of that sounds very much like a world power position and our place at the top table of the United Nations is a historic one which is unlikely to last indefinitely if we isolate ourselves as a small country.

So overall the choice for me is clear and simple.
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[Kudoscycles]

Lancslass,Nigel Gove's statement and Farage's arguments are well put to vote OUT.
As a businessman I do know that the EU generates considerable regulations which they invent but which we seem to be the only country that abides by them. The lady from HMRC that told me I had to be VAT registered in 17 EEC countries assured me that a successful Greek mail order company (if there is one?) would be similarly compelled back in Greece,yeh!!!!
Having said that the number of regulations that the EU generates are so numerate and so ridiculous that the directives end up in my circular filing cabinet.
Many of the tariff barriers with China are protectionism by the Germans,I know of no tarif import duty that was conceived to the benefit of the U.K. The Chinese dumping steel is an obvious example,we seem powerless to do something about it because it doesn't suit other EEC countries,whilst our steel industry is unfairly destroyed....I am sure the French and Germans would react quickly if they were similarly affected.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Many of the tariff barriers with China are protectionism by the Germans,I know of no tarif import duty that was conceived to the benefit of the U.K. The Chinese dumping steel is an obvious example,we seem powerless to do something about it because it doesn't suit other EEC countries,whilst our steel industry is unfairly destroyed....I am sure the French and Germans would react quickly if they were similarly affected.
KudosDave

Sorry Dave, I have to question this. Germany has long been the largest steel producer in the EU and is the world's seventh largest producer. The Chinese dumping is also a major threat to them. If they really were calling the shots the EU protections would surely cover steel.

 

[Lancslass]

Sorry Dave, I have to question this. Germany has long been the largest steel producer in the EU and is the world's seventh largest producer. The Chinese dumping is also a major threat to them. If they really were calling the shots the EU protections would surely cover steel.

This is part of the problem (or some may see it as a strength), every decision is a compromise. Through compromise may come weak decisions or some may say, fairer decisions.
But those decisions are going to be more and more compromised as the EU gets bigger and because of the economic and cultural differences, the resulting laws and regulations will favour countries that have different agendas to ourselves. That isn't scare mongering, I believe it to be an inevitability of the growth of the EU.

 

[Croxden]

Having read the arguments I've definitely decided I still don't know.

 

[flecc]

But those decisions are going to be more and more compromised as the EU gets bigger and because of the economic and cultural differences, the resulting laws and regulations will favour countries that have different agendas to ourselves. That isn't scare mongering, I believe it to be an inevitability of the growth of the EU.

I'd say less and less compromised over time. As the EU becomes increasingly harmonised the national agendas will get closer, since they will relate more and more to harmonised issues.

Just look at the example of Anglo French relations. A few decades ago we were always at loggerheads, agreed on nothing and General de Gaulle blocked our joining the union. Now we have many common interests and work well together, both having huge populations of the other's country permanently resident. Our joint relations are the best they have ever been historically.

And isn't this harmony true of Germany as well. Only the other day there were a group of English people who live and work in Germany announcing that if the UK leaves the union, they will apply for German nationality. Theres no doubt who they think has got it right.
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[Lancslass]

Lancslass,Nigel Gove's statement and Farage's arguments are well put to vote OUT.

KudosDave

I would add Chris Graying to that list. He was the first cabinet minister to speak and although he doesn't shout from the rooftops, he has a very measured, mild mannered way with him that I like.

I'd definitely take 'Lancslass' off the list - she's a shouty northern so and so who probably gets up people's noses!

It's a pity Sajid Javid didn't come out with the leavers, he is a good, intelligent speaker and it was a close decision for him apparently.

I am hoping that Boris goes with the leavers, I have heard that he is leaning that way.

 

[Lancslass]

Just look at the example of Anglo French relations. A few decades ago we were always at loggerheads, agreed on nothing and General de Gaulle blocked our joining the union. Now we have many common interests and work well together, both having huge populations of the other's country permanently resident. Our joint relations are the best they have ever been historically.


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I love the French and travel over there every year but Hollande isn't a fan of the UK. I heard that as Cameron passed him when leaving the summit he said to him something like "none of this is law yet". That may be apocryphal but he was one of the hardest to bargain with apparently. I agree that relationships between the two peoples are good and better than for some time.

 

[flecc]

I love the French and travel over there every year but Hollande isn't a fan of the UK. I heard that as Cameron passed him when leaving the summit he said to him something like "none of this is law yet".

For François Hollande and David Cameron, read Socialist and Conservative.

Or Cat and Dog.
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[neptune]

Over the past decade, the EU has murdered tens of thousands of its citizens, by denying smokers access to "Snuss", a smokeless kind of tobacco, which in Sweden has proved to have virtually zero health risks. From May, their plan to repeat this "success" gets underway, as they plan to emasculate vaping, denying millions of smokers a safe way to improve their health at their own expense. No argument from the "In" brigade will be sufficient to counteract this. Booze and sugar are next on the list. Guess how I will be voting.

 

[flecc]

I am hoping that Boris goes with the leavers, I have heard that he is leaning that way.

Boris only leans Boris's way, self-interest has been his lifelong policy objective.

Typically, he's waiting to see which way the referendum cookie crumbles to give him the best chance of being seen on the winning side.

Privately he almost certainly hopes that's for leaving the EU, not because that's what he thinks best but simply because that will place him on the opposite side to Cameron. Then if the vote is to leave, Cameron will be forced to resign and Boris will be seen to be the natural successor as Prime Minister.
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[derf]

Boris only leans Boris's way, self-interest has been his lifelong policy objective.

Typically, he's waiting to see which way the referendum cookie crumbles to give him the best chance of being seen on the winning side.

Privately he almost certainly hopes that's for leaving the EU, not because that's what he thinks best but simply because that will place him on the opposite side to Cameron. Then if the vote is to leave, Cameron will be forced to resign and Boris will be seen to be the natural successor as Prime Minister.
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one simplistic way I'm trying to find my way is through opting for the lesser evil, but choosing between the likes of Boris (or Hunt and Murdoch) or any of the other cash for access, expenses abusing self interested slappers that make Westminster - or for example Juncker (and his history as architect of major tax avoidance in Luxembourg) is really difficult. At least were probably equally screwed either way.

 

[trex]

Boris only leans Boris's way, self-interest has been his lifelong policy objective.

Typically, he's waiting to see which way the referendum cookie crumbles to give him the best chance of being seen on the winning side.

Privately he almost certainly hopes that's for leaving the EU, not because that's what he thinks best but simply because that will place him on the opposite side to Cameron. Then if the vote is to leave, Cameron will be forced to resign and Boris will be seen to be the natural successor as Prime Minister.
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that may backfire on him. The reality is that the majority of Tory's MPs are on Cameron's side and nobody likes a traitor.

 

[derf]

that may backfire on him. The reality is that the majority of Tory's MPs are on Cameron's side and nobody likes a traitor.

that's assuming a Tory MP has sufficient integrity to know what "traitor" means, which is very doubtful (think Cameron and election manifestos)

 

[trex]

the bookies have leave at 9/4

 

[flecc]

that may backfire on him. The reality is that the majority of Tory's MPs are on Cameron's side and nobody likes a traitor.

Although there's truth in this, I think Tory MP's self interest would win. Informed opinion is that Cameron will be forced to resign if he loses the referendum vote which means finding a successor.

Boris Johnson has undoubted electoral appeal and the party has no-one else with anything like that appeal. In a Corbyn - Johnson election, there's little doubt who would win with the public overall.

The only other possibility I could envisage after a vote to leave the EU is for the conservatives to have a behind the scenes agreement to elect a holding post PM from their ranks. Boris would then be their fresh untainted weapon to fight and win the next general election. Tactically that would be the best choice in my opinion, not that I ever want Boris to be PM.

Stop Press; Boris has opted for the Out campaign.
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[Lancslass]

Boris is going with the leavers.