Leaving the EU

[Gubbins]

Just reading this and am wondering how many more documents and reports we don't know about..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3554769/Leaked-jobs-report-reveals-civil-servants-concern-EU-influx.html

 

[trex]

from the link above:

The biggest contributor is the increase in the long-term migration of EU citizens.

I wouldn't knock it. They are very beneficial to the economy. In fact, EU workers are not the majority of workers born outside the UK, that honour goes to Asians.

Of those who come from the EU, many are graduates. They work hard (80% in employment against UK 73%) and we don't have to pay for their education, worth about £100k each.
If you want to reduce the burden on the state, look at the red line below.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think Obama is secretly working for Brexit. His inference to stay in can only make people want to leave..

I was hoping that he would give us something to help decide, but his whole speech, came across as very mendacious. I was expecting him to say something like, "The British people are our special friends and allies. We'll do the best for them whatever they decide". Somebody pointed out that there were words in his speech, which are specific to UK English, that an American wouldn't normally use, throwing suspicion that the speech was concocted by someone in the UK.

I'm still undecided, but I don't like to be conned. When people come out with crap and lies, I wonder what they're trying to hide. I suspect that there's a club of politicians, the business people behind them and their media/publicity machines that have a lot to lose from Brexit and that the rest of us have a lot to gain, but how can we get any sensible info to decide?

 

[trex]

depends on what you think the rest of of have a lot to gain. Our special friends will probably keep their manufacturing here but certainly move their banks to Frankfurt.
We've swallowed our pride to stay in the EU club because we are economically better off in than out, ergo when we get out, the country's budget will be a bit harder to balance.

 

[Gubbins]

Did anyone see this on question time this week?
Went over my head but is just as believable as all the other hype that's out there..
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=question time

 

[trex]

if he is as good as he thinks he is, he should be richer than Donald Trump by now. As a country, we recycle 2 trillions a year and end up with 74 billions deficit. Reality is a lot tougher and more complicated than the back of his envelope.
Companies put their expansion on hold, people lose their job etc. just because of the fear factor.
Check the value of the pound over the last 6-7 months since Brexit date was bandied around. It hit 7 year low at 1 GBP = 1.386 USD (27-Feb) when the polls put Brexit at 50/50. Since Obama's speech was leaked to the press last week, the Pound recovers a bit, currently at 1.44USD.

 

[gray198]

I think the reason most politicians want to stay is because they will have to actually run the country if we leave. They won't be able to blame everything on the EU. Problem is I don't know if we have actually got anyone that can run the country. There have been so many years of them doing half a job and getting away with it that the pool of talent has become very shallow. and that's not taking account of the fact that they have absolutely no confidence in the country or its people

 

[Blew it]

If you have eighty minutes to spare, this lecture delivered by Peter Hitchens is perhaps a way to spend it.

 

[trex]

@blewit so getting out of the EU will stop the rise of Germany or the future rapprochement of Germany and Russia?

 

[Blew it]

@blewit so getting out of the EU will stop the rise of Germany or the future rapprochement of Germany and Russia?

I really would not know, but I will ask Mr Hitchens next time I see him. I'm sure he would be delighted to answer your question.

 

[flecc]

If you have eighty minutes to spare, this lecture delivered by Peter Hitchens is perhaps a way to spend it.

An interesting talk and I had already agreed long ago on many of Hitchens contentions. This is particularly witn regard to the Ukraine, which is in truth not a country but a patchwork of recent hastily stitched together territories which has never worked as a whole.

I think a point that he misses is that Germany's post war relationship to Europe is not of their own making but an adoption of American practice. A century ago the USA started a process of cultural and political domination after realisation that winning and taking over territory isn't necessary to have a virtual empire.

Their first move in this direction was defeating the Spanish empire by force, taking from them all their external territories but not moving in. Instead they used the gift of freedom to create a cultural acceptance in each of the territories, the Phillipines being a prime example.

They then did the same in Japan after WW2, not taking over the territory but instead re-educating the country into American culture. At the same time they used our war debts of both kinds to influence Britain the same way, making us very much a part of their Coca Cola - McDonalds pro-US cultural empire. In more recent times they've being trying to do the same in Central and South America.

Germany in contrast for the first half of the twentieth century stayed faithful to the old concept of territorial domination by forced occupation. It's clear that the USA's post WW2 influence finally brought them realisation that they could win without force by cultural and political means. Their ready acceptance of many millions of others such as the Turks and Syrians is clearly a part of that process and certainly not a mistake by Merkel as Hitchens believes. It's all about winning hearts and minds.

Therefore there is nothing to fear about Germany. Firstly the German nation is now hugely diluted anyway by many millions of Turks and Syrians and hundreds of thousands of others from elsewhere. There's also the fact of the re-integration of Germany, merging the far larger number of East Germans who, including by marriage, had been culturally shifted by the long period under Soviet rule and are still showing those differences. Secondly, that newly mongrel Germany is but 80 millions among an EU of 500 millions, so just 16%. All these changes makes any remaining notion of Arian purity and dominance a nonsense.

Finally there is already a repprochement between Germany and Russia, and both show it. The extreme reluctance of Germany to participate in the sanctions against Russia following the Crimea siituation is a prime example.

Therefore I have an opimistic view of the long term future this side of the Atlantic, the only threat being any failures in the EU project weakening it's progress.
.

 

[Gubbins]

@blewit so getting out of the EU will stop the rise of Germany or the future rapprochement of Germany and Russia?

Well. Staying in won't stop anything.

 

[trex]

current poll of polls:
in: 54%
leave: 46%
Theresa May did a pretty good job saying that we should leave ECHR.
The only real issue at the moment seems to be EU migrants.

 

[oldgroaner]

I shall be 72 on Friday, so whatever happens I am unlikely to see the long term effect of the referendum decision , but for the life of me i can't see how if we come out we can expect to continue without a manufacturing base that is owned, run and invested in in this country.
Even the CBI only represents a quarter of British manufacturers, and we have seen how companies like Tata cannot be relied upon not to jump ship as they please.
As we are at present we are really only a district of the EU community, relying heavily on London centred financial activity, and even that is under threat of moving out to the far east.
When you add to that the attitude of certain politicians who regard the public at large as simply profit generating "Work units" for who's well being and security they feel either indifference or little more than contempt.
To come out of the EU to be governed not merely by incompetents, but sinister ones at that who have fought tooth and nail against any legislation from Europe intended to improve the Environment ,public Well Being, protection and safety, is not a cheering prospect.
Sadly this criticism extends to all the major parties, not just one.
The greatest enemy we face isn't terrorism, but the actions of elected politicians, the indications are that if allowed free reign outside the EU they will by a mixture of intent and incompetence make such a mess of running the country, that as Churchill put it, they bring about the situation where " All we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science."
Perhaps we should advertise for the following, before considering Brexit.

"Wanted, a Good Government for a small long established island Nation, somewhat neglected through lack of investment, poor Management and squandered resources, but basically sound, just requiring the sort of Government that can plan, act, invest and promote industry,and commerce, protect the environment, while nurturing and protecting the People of the nation"
I should have added in "And be always Truthful" but that's like asking for "Free Beer Tomorrow"

 

[oldgroaner]

current poll of polls:
in: 54%
leave: 46%
Theresa May did a pretty good job saying that we should leave ECHR.
The only real issue at the moment seems to be EU migrants.

Tell me:which part of the ECHR do you object to?
Lets just take a sample: Do you really want to deny people these rights?
"

• 3.1Article 1 - respecting rights
• 3.2Article 2 - life
• 3.3Article 3 - torture
• 3.4Article 4 - servitude
• 3.5Article 5 - liberty and security
• 3.6Article 6 - fair trial

 

[trex]

We are not abandoning the Conventions, just ECHR.
I object to the lawyers who milk the system.

 

[oldgroaner]

We are not abandoning the Conventions, just ECHR.
I object to the lawyers who milk the system.

Well, we can certainly agree on that at least!

 

[mike killay]

When I was but a lad.....
In school we used to celebrate Empire Day.
We dressed up as the various nations of the Empire and paraded around.
Of course, because this was just after WW11, real austerity ruled and we wore old curtains etc. We had a globe in the big hall, with half of it coloured red.
The World was SO different then. For example, as a 7 year old, my 'cowboy gun' was a rusty old, but real Webley .455.
I so envied those boys who had real Colt .25's, small and fitted a boys hand so well. My Mother took me to the Lord Mayor's fancy dress party for children, and one of the winners was a Somali boy dressed as a Golliwog.
Now, being in my seventies I look back and my conclusion is that we are still in the dying days of Empire.
Our industries are either off shored or foreign owned. We squabble about things that we find offensive only because American culture says are offensive. Truly, British culture is dead. It lives on in Welshnesh and Scottishness and the Morris dancers. ( I saw a traditional Mummers Play last Christmas at Lechlade, the Moor was NOT allowed to black up). I spoke to one of the audience who was obviously of some black ancestry and asked her about it, she was not fussed.
If we stay in the EU we will slowly dwindle and become a bit player. If we leave, the same will happen only faster.
Apparently, according to an election leaflet received from the prospective Police Commissioner, my local force has dwindled from 3,000 to 2,400.
My friend had a heart attack in Bangor North Wales two weeks ago, 24 hours later, he was still on a stretcher in a corridor waiting for a bed.
The OUT vote is predicated on the UK being as great as it used to be.
Sadly, those days are gone.

 

[derf]

When I was but a lad.....
In school we used to celebrate Empire Day.
We dressed up as the various nations of the Empire and paraded around.
Of course, because this was just after WW11, real austerity ruled and we wore old curtains etc. We had a globe in the big hall, with half of it coloured red.
The World was SO different then. For example, as a 7 year old, my 'cowboy gun' was a rusty old, but real Webley .455.
I so envied those boys who had real Colt .25's, small and fitted a boys hand so well. My Mother took me to the Lord Mayor's fancy dress party for children, and one of the winners was a Somali boy dressed as a Golliwog.
Now, being in my seventies I look back and my conclusion is that we are still in the dying days of Empire.
Our industries are either off shored or foreign owned. We squabble about things that we find offensive only because American culture says are offensive. Truly, British culture is dead. It lives on in Welshnesh and Scottishness and the Morris dancers. ( I saw a traditional Mummers Play last Christmas at Lechlade, the Moor was NOT allowed to black up). I spoke to one of the audience who was obviously of some black ancestry and asked her about it, she was not fussed.
If we stay in the EU we will slowly dwindle and become a bit player. If we leave, the same will happen only faster.
Apparently, according to an election leaflet received from the prospective Police Commissioner, my local force has dwindled from 3,000 to 2,400.
My friend had a heart attack in Bangor North Wales two weeks ago, 24 hours later, he was still on a stretcher in a corridor waiting for a bed.
The OUT vote is predicated on the UK being as great as it used to be.
Sadly, those days are gone.

yes..as long as you bear in mind (and I sincerely don't mean to cause offence) that the average Matabele or Masjona in what was then southern Rhodesia may not share your fond memories of a British empire (that was in reality about a racist exploitation of the third world). In London there are many white south African expats with fond memories of apartheid. none of which really justifies all the unmarked graves and oppression.

 

[mike killay]

I don't think that I have any fond memories of Empire.
We were Primary school kids, some had lost their fathers in the war, half the school building was missing because of the bombing.
My best friend was a German speaking Jew whose parents had got out before 1939, as was my Doctor.
But, I didn't know what a Jew was, he just didn't come to assembly prayers with the rest of us.
Empire was what grown ups talked about.
Much more important was whether the grocer's would soon have bananas. Cream was something that my Mother talked about, I had never seen it.