Leaving the EU

[tillson]

Trump is one of a long line of that type of US candidates, who have managed to tap into the vein of working class people.
Using fears and resentment.
Little doubt if the never ending row of millionaires that populate the government front bench, do not listen to the public UK will get a Trump eventually.

I think I sort of agree with you. It's ordinary working people who bear the brunt of the mistakes and incompetence of the privileged few who occupy the top jobs in government. They are insulated by wealth from the affects of their actions. They still enjoy the same level of security for example, whilst the rest of us have had our local police force budgets cut. The same with health care. The long term lazy & bone idle underclasses are also isolated from the consequences to some extent. Our privileged leaders seem to find it necessary to refer to them as disadvantaged and to give them generous benefits that the country can't afford. This is probably done out of guilt and to ease their consciences.

It's the working people, in employment, or who have lived modest lifestyles in order to fund a pension who are trapped in the middle with no one seemingly representing their interests. This is where the Donald Trumps capitalise. They seemingly feed this need by working people to be recognised and represented. I have absolutely no doubt that if Trump does win the Republican nomination and does move into the Whitehouse, much of what he is currently spouting will not happen. He's a sort of, "Doesn't do what it says on the tin" type of character, so there's not much to be concerned about. Having said this, I sincerely hope he does win. The established political system is frightened of him and a win will rub their noses in the dirt. I also look forward to seeing Cameron and May welcoming him to the UK and crawling on their hands and knees behind him as he strides into Number 10. It will be good to have a laugh at their humiliation.

 

[mike killay]

Look up,
Pathological Altruism
and
Virtue Signalling.

Explains a lot.

 

[flecc]

UK will get a Trump eventually.

The UK is no stranger to home-grown privileged extremists of course.

We had Enoch Powell and his "Rivers of Blood" speech almost fifty years ago, saying that would be the consequence of black immigration.

And before WW2, there was Oswald Mosely, followed by many would be imitators in recent decades, in BNP, ENP etc.

They all pass with time and their dire predictions are proved wrong.
.

 

[tillson]

We had Enoch Powell and his "Rivers of Blood" speech almost fifty years ago, saying that would be the consequence of black immigration.

They all pass with time and their dire predictions are proved wrong.
.

I think he was partially right here and the sentiment was generally correct too. There has been blood on our streets in the name of different culture and religion.

I remember Anna Soufflé on the BBC's Question Time mocking and deriding Nigel Farage when he suggested that Eastern Europeans would come to the UK once they were members the EU, so not always proved wrong.

 

[flecc]

I think he was partially right here and the sentiment was generally correct too. There has been blood on our streets in the name of different culture and religion.

Powell didn't even begin to be right. Any blood on our streets has been but a tiny trickle compared with what we've caused ourselves by our policies and actions overseas. Immigrants shouldn't be blamed for our political ineptitude and militaristic responses to problems.

I remember Anna Soufflé on the BBC's Question Time mocking and deriding Nigel Farage when he suggested that Eastern Europeans would come to the UK once they were members the EU, so not always proved wrong.

I didn't include Farage since I don't regard him as an extremist. He's just a "Little Englander", very small "c" conservative and a dinosaur just hanging on.
.

 

[trex]

I much prefer listening to Nigel Farrage than to Boris Johnson who will add a mountain of exageration to every grain of truth when arguing for Brexit.

 

[tillson]

Powell didn't even begin to be right. Any blood on our streets has been but a tiny trickle compared with what we've caused ourselves by our policies and actions overseas. Immigrants shouldn't be blamed for our political ineptitude and militaristic responses to problems.

I don't think that you are trying to excuse the murders which have been committed in the UK by extremists? But, I do think that there is a link between insecure borders that allow anyone and anything to enter the country and the ease with which terrorists can operate. Being part of the EU makes it harder for us to secure those borders.

I didn't include Farage since I don't regard him as an extremist. He's just a "Little Englander", very small "c" conservative and a dinosaur just hanging on.

He has led his party into a position where they are currently the third most popular party in British politics. I wouldn't call that, just hanging on. UKIP are three times more popular with UK voters than the SNP who are rewarded with 56 MPs against UKIPs 1. I would call a system which allows that to happen archaic and fit for the same fate as the dinosaurs.

 

[flecc]

He has led his party into a position where they are currently the third most popular party in British politics. I wouldn't call that, just hanging on. UKIP are three times more popular with UK voters than the SNP who are rewarded with 56 MPs against UKIPs 1. I would call a system which allows that to happen archaic and fit for the same fate as the dinosaurs.

I meant those attitudes are just hanging on. Decades ago they were mainstream and held by the majority, but I've watched them diminish and become the minority view that they are now. UKIP successes have proved transient, momentarily appearing in response to the odd event but them disappearing each time. The current apparent popularity will just as surely disappear as the current situation changes.

But I do agree on the electoral system, successes, transient or otherwise, should be reflected in our governance if we are to claim our system democratic.
.

 

[trex]

... I do think that there is a link between insecure borders that allow anyone and anything to enter the country and the ease with which terrorists can operate. Being part of the EU makes it harder for us to secure those borders.

.

terrorists don't recognize borders, we do. That's why it's difficult for individual member country to stop them. If we have an EU 'CTU' , we may be more successful at stopping them.

 

[derf]

No, it's no ones fault but their own. Disadvantaged, alienated, all words used by the apologists. These people have chosen to kill innocent people because they are nasty, dangerous and evil individuals. They need to be put in a place where they can do no further harm.

no, this the kind of false dichotomy populists like trump (or bush, remember the axis of evil dividing the world between good and evil - it wasn't true but then but boy has it become true as a self fulfilling prophecy) would like us to believe. the choice isn't between being an apologist for terrorist or non apologist (or perhaps in the context of this thread close minded closet racist) for terrorism. the terrorism we see at the moment is more complex and multifaceted than this and its causes have as much to do with the west (and its foreign policies) as anything else. If the west stuck to suck black and white thinking (thankfully it wont and Farage will like Mosely become an eccentric cul de sac in history) nothing will have been learned form the war in Iraq.

 

[trex]

If you haven't seen it already, I urge you to watch Nick Robinson's last night excellent documentary on BBC2. Amazing footage of interviews with all the key players. Utterly brilliant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b077nrb1/europe-them-or-us-1-an-island-apart

 

[gray198]

If you haven't seen it already, I urge you to watch Nick Robinson's last night excellent documentary on BBC2. Amazing footage of interviews with all the key players. Utterly brilliant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b077nrb1/europe-them-or-us-1-an-island-apart

It was very interesting but seems to show that from the very start it was about taking political and financial control of participating countries

 

[trex]

if anything, it shows that our then leaders knew privately very well what we let ourselves in for, and more importantly, why. The objectives of the EEC then were clearly spelt out on many occasions before we joined, move toward a federal Europe and keep high tariffs for the outsiders.
Fastforward to time index 19:30 - the year was 1956, Harold Macmillan saw it like it was, and concluded, if you can't beat them, join them.
With hindsight, maybe we should have joined right at the beginning and avoided many of the current issues.

 

[flecc]

if anything, it shows that our then leaders knew privately very well what we let ourselves in for, and more importantly, why. The objectives of the EEC then were clearly spelt out on many occasions before we joined, move toward a federal Europe and keep high tariffs for the outsiders.
Fastforward to time index 19:30 - the year was 1956, Harold Macmillan saw it like it was, and concluded, if you can't beat them, join them.
With hindsight, maybe we should have joined right at the beginning and avoided many of the current issues.

It was possible to know at the time, since I certainly understood the nature of the committment, but one needed to look beyond the superficial news.

I agree we should have joined at the outset, then all the present troubles would not have occurred. Adding the euro would have made it much stronger and able to compete with the dollar.
.
.

 

[trex]

I found Blair was a very impressive communicator in his interview.
Robinson made the point about a British characteristic that seems to think that if we nobble the EU then the EU would fail. That's what we did in the 50s and 60s and about to repeat the same.

 

[flecc]

I found Blair was a very impressive communicator in his interview.

Agreed. I think the fact that he's spent much of his time since stepping down in giving large numbers of talks internationally has polished his ability in this respect.
.

 

[mike killay]

I am really, automatically suspicious of smooth talkers.

 

[shemozzle999]

I have seen the leaflet:

https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/why-the-government-believes-we-should-remain/eu-referendum-leaflet/

I think I might change my mind because I really really really really like the pictures

 

[flecc]

I am really, automatically suspicious of smooth talkers.

I've normally felt this way about Blair, but on this occasion I found his simple clarity of expression on the issue outstanding. I suspect that was what Trex appreciated too.
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[soundwave]