Leaving the EU

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,154
30,570
But we are not going to stay in the "present known", we will be going into an unknown future whether we stay in the EU or not. The future of the EU is now looking more uncertain than it has ever done since it's inception.
The present known is far more known than the unknown, and I think the talk of EU instability is vastly overstated. It's the sort of stirring up trouble the media delight in.

It may be that a few countries do depart over time, but I see that as a benefit that will strengthen the union, since some of the past expansion was ill-advised.
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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You could argue that going into the "unknown" is the braver option?
yes, it does look that way to me but if we leave, we won't be there to see the cost of placing pride before practicality. I fear that unless we rejoin the EU at some stage in the future, twenty years from now, our influence in the world will be reduced little by little to just the English language.
 
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robert44

Pedelecer
Mar 3, 2008
109
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The 'triumvirate' (the European Commission, The Council of the EU and the European Parliament) is composed of directly and indirectly elected representatives of member countries so they do have democratic underpinning.
We can vote out our own representatives in the EU. We can't vote out representatives of other member countries.
So you agree that we don't have the same voting powers re the EU as we do in relation to our own politicans and so we have lost part of our democratic rights- we now have "democratic underpinning"?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,154
30,570
Cowardice on the part of who? Those who want outside of the EU or those who think it is best to stay within the EU, the so called unknown or the known? You could argue that going into the "unknown" is the braver option?
The answer was already posted on this link.

Neither the ins or outs of course, the undecideds.
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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So you agree that we don't have the same voting powers re the EU as we do in relation to our own politicans and so we have lost part of our democratic rights- we now have "democratic underpinning"?
democracy is expensive, we can't vote on every single issue. That's why most of our institutions are run by delegates.

after thought: democracy may even be more expensive to participate than religion. Luckily, we can opt out of both.
 
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gray198

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Apr 4, 2012
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I saw today that Switzerland have decided they do not want to join the Eu and have cancelled a long standing application
 
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trex

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Switzerland is still a member of the Schengen countries. it can't stop EU migration and has to adopt most of EU laws. You can buy a house and move there to live and work if you want to (that is if you can afford the price of houses there).
Swiss pay less to the EU than we do.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,154
30,570
I saw today that Switzerland have decided they do not want to join the Eu and have cancelled a long standing application
That 1992 application was never seriously in prospect, which is why neither side ever pursued it. It was a part of negotiating the European Economic Area (EEA) agreement and they were already EFTA members anyway.
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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it's interesting to note that Switzerland have been in negociation for a special relationship with the EU since 1994 and the negociations get them nothing yet, they are still stuck with their EFTA membership. May be that's a warning for the leave camp. When they voted to limit EU migrations (2014), the EU simply told them if they want to set quotas on EU migrations, they have to lose their access to EU markets. Imagine for a moment after leaving the EU, Scotland, Wales, NI want to join the EU. What are we going to do?
 
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gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
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it's interesting to note that Switzerland have been in negociation for a special relationship with the EU since 1994 and the negociations get them nothing yet, they are still stuck with their EFTA membership. May be that's a warning for the leave camp. When they voted to limit EU migrations (2014), the EU simply told them if they want to set quotas on EU migrations, they have to lose their access to EU markets. Imagine for a moment after leaving the EU, Scotland, Wales, NI want to join the EU. What are we going to do?
But Switzerland are a much smaller economy than ours. We may have a bit more leverage. It seems that France are worried about us leaving, after hearing some of the comments from them
 

Lancslass

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Nov 3, 2015
438
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I have to admit that the fear of the unknown is very worrying and we aren't going to get any answers before June, simply because it will be all to play for in the form of negotiations after/if we leave.
I honestly believe though that it's irrelevant what Switzerland of Norway have managed to arrange with the EU. We will be in a different position to them, with lots more to offer the EU by way of bargaining power.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
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www.kudoscycles.com
It seems to me that the Germans and French are desperate to keep us in,threats from the Germans about affecting BMW investment and the French threats about cancelling the Calais immigrant deal.
Why are they so desperate to keep us in? Cameron should have been braver in what he asked for,he may have got more than he realised.
The more threats from Germany and France the more I am thinking we may be better off out of the money pit,which we put in an unfair contribution.
KudosDave
 
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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Within the two years of article 50, Scotland may vote for independence then apply for EU membership. That's a real possibility. We will be boxed in all sides by EU land, not unlike Switzerland. The Pound will lose its reserve currency status, its importance will be like the SF. We don't want to be treated by the EU like Switzerland, do we.
 
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gray198

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Apr 4, 2012
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can Scotland just have a vote for independence. I thought last time it had to be sanctioned by Westminster
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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yes, but Westminster cannot refuse. If the Scottish government want one, they'll have it anyway. Same situation if they want to have their own referendum with regard to joining the EU. I think that the votes are split down the middle 49/51, it won't be a clear cut. Unless we get out then back in, this country won't be at peace with itself.
 

derf

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Aug 4, 2014
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democracy is expensive, we can't vote on every single issue. That's why most of our institutions are run by delegates.

after thought: democracy may even be more expensive to participate than religion. Luckily, we can opt out of both.
but what then (after opting out of democracy)? so one finds oneself sharing a society with distastefully self-serving middle class types (who vote for boris or trump, or think merkel was a fool to try to offer refugees refuge, and that tax cuts are more important than other peoples' lives; or relationships). One ends up either going with this awful consensus - or not. And where does that opt out leave one? I like - in a sense - the EU referendum: all the arguments fundamentally about unenlightened self interest (which choice will make us "richer", "put less obligation on us to help refugees or the world"). Blame this on me being a migrant but it's like observing spoilt brats that are spoilt for choice and harbour the illusion that the world is there for them (which can be a very costly mistake).
 
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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my way of opting out is to find a reason to vote for what I believe the losers side. In this referendum, I think the leave side may narrowly win in the first round then economic reality will soon dawn on most people, better to pay the EU for their light touch dictatorship than to live in a free for all GB. That will lead to independence for Scots and a new referendum to get back in.
As for religion, mine is science.It's just as narrow-minded in its principles as any other major religion.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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I've been in hiding all week, too terrified to venture out in case the French release migrant hoards across the channel. Of course this would involve the French ripping up one of those agreements which the "In Campaigners" tell us would send shock waves through the international community. I look forward to the French's credit rating falling through the floor as a result.

What kind of people use other human beings as weapons to bully and cajole? Who uses human beings as weapons for the purpose of perverting the course of democracy in another country? The French, that's who. What treacherous people they are. Do we really want to be part of any political union with a country which behaves in this way? How can we trust them now? What if their plan works and we do vote to remain in the EU? The French have proven that they are sufficiently devious to double cross us cancel the boarder agreement once their objective is achieved.

In this time of uncertainty, we now have a very clear certainty. The French are certainly a wicked, devious and unethical nation. They have proven this in recent days.

The Germans. A nation which within living memory invented industrial scale murder. A nation which has managed to hoodwink many other countries with a massive lie and off-load their cars onto them. Now, like the French, the Germans are attempting to pervert the course of democracy in this country by writing threatening letters to their UK employees. Do we really want a political union with these people?

One thing is clear. Both the French and the German politicians are scared. They are frightened because the populations of both countries have had enough. They are sick of the EU and all that it brings. They know that if we make the right decision and leave the EU the people of their countries will want a democratic process regarding their future membership too. They don't like democracy and will stop at nothing to crush it. As we are seeing.

Look at the illegal immigrants massing in Greece and France. Their sense of entitlement is staggering. The ease with which they are willing to use violence in order to illegally enter a country is very worrying. Would you want these people living in your neighbourhood? I don't mean just one or two, but many such people. In the schools with your children, ahead of you in the 3 week wait to see your GP when you are ill. Illegal migrants occupying our very limited housing stock or in houses built over our green countryside. Is that what we want?

If we leave the EU, we can take our own measures to control immigration. Don't believe the people who will tell you that breaching international agreements will irreparably damage our reputation with grave consequences. Look what the French have done in recent days. Has it harmed them? No. And it won't harm us either if we take control of our borders.

We as a country have things to sell and other countries have things they want to sell to us. Whilst ever that situation exists a way to trade will be found. We don't need the EU political union for that.

The Scott's. So what if they want independence? Let them go bankrupt inside 12 months if that's what they want. They need to be told very clearly that if they leave the UK there is no Bank of England (there is a clue in the title) to act as a safety net for Jimmy Crankie's I'll thought out spending plans. I'm sure it would be very nice fot the Scotts to go mad on mummy and daddy's credit card ( B of E). Well it shouldn't be allowed to happen. I doubt if the EU would even want them if they had to stand on their own two feet financially.

My mind is now made up. OUT. There are no additional downsides to leaving. We are good enough as a nation to prosper without EU political interference. Germany and France have twigged this and now they are frightened and they are getting desperate.
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
The Scott's. So what if they want independence? Let them go bankrupt inside 12 months if that's what they want.
.
the Pound may lose its reserve currency status if the Scots leave.
Mass selling of Sterling by the likes of George Sorros will force large devaluation and bring back interest rates to the 70s levels.
 

Lancslass

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 3, 2015
438
266
69
Egerton, BL7 North Bolton, Lancashire
I've been in hiding all week, too terrified to venture out in case the French release migrant hoards across the channel. Of course this would involve the French ripping up one of those agreements which the "In Campaigners" tell us would send shock waves through the international community. I look forward to the French's credit rating falling through the floor as a result.

What kind of people use other human beings as weapons to bully and cajole? Who uses human beings as weapons for the purpose of perverting the course of democracy in another country? The French, that's who. What treacherous people they are. Do we really want to be part of any political union with a country which behaves in this way? How can we trust them now? What if their plan works and we do vote to remain in the EU? The French have proven that they are sufficiently devious to double cross us cancel the boarder agreement once their objective is achieved.

In this time of uncertainty, we now have a very clear certainty. The French are certainly a wicked, devious and unethical nation. They have proven this in recent days.

The Germans. A nation which within living memory invented industrial scale murder. A nation which has managed to hoodwink many other countries with a massive lie and off-load their cars onto them. Now, like the French, the Germans are attempting to pervert the course of democracy in this country by writing threatening letters to their UK employees. Do we really want a political union with these people?

One thing is clear. Both the French and the German polititions are scared. They are frightened because the populations of both countries have had enough. They are sick of the EU and all that it brings. They know that if we make the right decision and leave the EU the people of their countries will want a democratic process regarding their future membership too. They don't like democracy and will stop at nothing to crush it. As we are seeing.

Look at the illegal immigrants massing in Greece and France. Their sense of entitlement is staggering. The ease with which they are willing to use violence in order to illegally enter a country is very worrying. Would you want these people living in your neighbourhood? I don't mean just one or two, but many such people. In the schools with your children, ahead of you in the 3 week wait to see your GP when you are ill. Illegal migrants occupying our very limited housing stock or in houses built over our green countryside. Is that what we want?

If we leave the EU, we can take our own measures to control immigration. Don't believe the people who will tell you that breaching international agreements will irreparably damage our reputation with grave consequences. Look what the French have done in recent days. Has it harmed them? No. And it won't harm us either if we take control of our borders.

We as a country have things to sell and other countries have things they want to sell to us. Whilst ever that situation exists a way to trade will be found. We don't need the EU political union for that.

The Scott's. So what if they want independence? Let them go bankrupt inside 12 months if that's what they want. They need to be told very clearly that if they leave the UK there is no Bank of England (there is a clue in the title) to act as a safety net for Jimmy Crankie's I'll thought out spending plans. I'm sure it would be very nice fot the Scotts to go mad on mummy and daddy's credit card ( B of E). Well it shouldn't be allowed to happen. I doubt if the EU would even want them if they had to stand on their own two feet financially.

My mind is now made up. OUT. There are no additional downsides to leaving. We are good enough as a nation to prosper without EU political interference. Germany and France have twigged this and now they are frightened and they are getting desperate.
Wow, that's a rant and a half!:D
 
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