Kudos Arriba 25MPH ;-)

[103Alex1]

As to the lack of easing up, this goes back to the very point I made which is that the law provides no ability to register vehicles in the 'space' between mopeds and restricted eBikes and it is this category of where lightly regulated bikes are of most interest to those of us who don't want scooters or sport bikes for transport over longer distances. This very intransigence over accepting bikes in this category in some form of compromise way is what drives people to tinker, hotrod or whatever you call it, especially younger riders not into fitness. The lower category is too low and the higher category is too high. It's only in the middle ground that the balance sought is to be found and people get bikes they actually are happy with owning and riding.

There's no point in telling people to register as mopeds - you can't without turning bicycles into mini-motorbikes with mirrors, indicators etc and passing a huge range of criteria. Which means there's no legal way of riding them within the legislative framework. Anywhere in public. And it's not the bikes that are the problem it's the lack of recognition of their suitability for transport clouded by revenue seeking governments trying (effectively) to make them expensive to own on the one hand and protectionist arguments from the legal market fearful that the bikes their market wants will be swept up in any changes adversely.

So ..... in the meantime the only way people get to ride perfectly safe bikes which suit them is to do so outside the law. And they are doing so in significant numbers. The law is not reasonable on this point, sorry. These perfectly safe bikes are technically outlawed for no better reason than legislative apathy.

Sorry thats not true,well at least not in Utrecht in Holland....I exhibited at a 50plus show and one of the first questions we got asked was did it have EN15194. This was closely followed by a maintenance contract,a leasing deal,a guaranteed final value and anti-theft insurance,trying to make it go faster above 25kph was not even mentioned-the show was 6 days long,80,000 attendees so it was representative.
This is in contrast to the recent Birmingham NEC cycle show,in order of popularity of questions...
How far does it go? 35miles
Does it recharge when pedalling? No
How much does it cost? £495.00 to £1295.00...thats usually followed by thats a rip off or thats very cheap,no consistency in value judgement
How fast does it go? 15mph......usually followed by my bike goes quicker than that,how can I make it faster? I was never asked that question in Holland!
KudosDave

That is exactly the point I was making in pointing out that the Netherlands cannot be held up as representative, being a nation of "tootling cyclists" with a well developed and affordable public transport system for people to cover longer distances on. Nothing culturally or infrastructurally could be further from the United Kingdom ... or most of the rest of Europe !

 

[mjwobble]

has anyone ever been stopped by the police OR put themselves or anyone else in danger by going over the 15.5mph limit? I know I haven't and in certain situations the extra speed makes things safer

 

[GaRRy]

As to the lack of easing up, this goes back to the very point I made which is that the law provides no ability to register vehicles in the 'space' between mopeds and restricted eBikes and it is this category of where lightly regulated bikes are of most interest to those of us who don't want scooters or sport bikes for transport over longer distances. This very intransigence over accepting bikes in this category in some form of compromise way is what drives people to tinker, hotrod or whatever you call it, especially younger riders not into fitness. The lower category is too low and the higher category is too high. It's only in the middle ground that the balance sought is to be found and people get bikes they actually are happy with owning and riding.

There's no point in telling people to register as mopeds - you can't without turning bicycles into mini-motorbikes with mirrors, indicators etc and passing a huge range of criteria. Which means there's no legal way of riding them within the legislative framework. Anywhere in public. And it's not the bikes that are the problem it's the lack of recognition of their suitability for transport clouded by revenue seeking governments trying (effectively) to make them expensive to own on the one hand and protectionist arguments from the legal market fearful that the bikes their market wants will be swept up in any changes adversely.

So ..... in the meantime the only way people get to ride perfectly safe bikes which suit them is to do so outside the law. And they are doing so in significant numbers. The law is not reasonable on this point, sorry. These perfectly safe bikes are technically outlawed for no better reason than legislative apathy.

Perfectly reasonable argument. But if a new category was introduced where do you stand on tax,insurance,license,helmet,use of cycle path etc?

This is where it falls down as most people want to be able to still ride it like any other bike. There is as much chance of this as all those restrictions being removed from mopeds.

sent by pigeon post

 

[RichB]

If you or a member of your family were injured by a electric bike colliding with them at say 35 MPH being ridden under power in a 40 MPH limit area, would you be satisfied if the police said to you, "hard luck mate, there are unrestricted scooters in this area, so we aren't going to take any action against the ebike rider" ? Then followed it up with, "Oh and by the way, forget any compo, he's not insured. Live with it." I don't know you, but I think you would be a bit vocal about the situation. But this is precisely what your contribution to the discussion is suggesting.

That's not what I'm suggesting and as you know if this, heaven forbid, happened, the Police would have an obligation to investigate. The point I was trying to make is that whether you like it or not people will always try and go quicker, and it will never be resolved on a forum. On a motorbike forum I'm also part of, a similar debate is sparked off every time someone says "Why do we wear Helmets?" or on a car forum where someone asks "is the current speed limit fair?".
Personally 15 mph is quick enough for me, but I don't really have any issues with people who what to go quicker as there's a lot more dangerous stuff out there than a de-restricted E-bike!

 

[flecc]

Perfectly reasonable argument. But if a new category was introduced where do you stand on tax,insurance,license,helmet,use of cycle path etc?

This is where it falls down as most people want to be able to still ride it like any other bike. There is as much chance of this as all those restrictions being removed from mopeds.

Absolutely right as we know from the German and Swiss examples. They do have intermediate classes of the sort Alex and others want, but they have registration, compulsory insurance and helmet wearing, a back number plate, a ban from cyclepaths, shared facilities etc, which here would include no use of Sustrans routes. That's not substantially different from moped regulations, and for anyone who already has a long held driving licence almost no different.

I don't agree with Alex that it's down to intransigence, the batch of restrictions are inevitable. Once powered higher speeds are allowed third party insurance becomes necessary, so to administer that registration is necessary. Then to know a bike is registered and who the owner is means it has to have a number plate. It's an inevitable accumulation, nothing to do with intransigence. And of course these higher speed e-bikes have to be banned from routes shared by pedestrians, that too is an inevitability. As I've often said before, those asking for the higher speeds without these restrictions are asking for the impossible, what they really want will never happen, simply because it can't as I've clearly shown.
.

 

[103Alex1]

Once powered higher speeds are allowed third party insurance becomes necessary.

It's only unpowered that "high speeds" are obtained. In the context of the 35mph example above, this is only going to happen on most 500W bikes when gravity has taken the bike above speeds at which the motor is making any contribution at all.

Road bikes will be going much faster on the same routes and I would strongly argue that mandatory 3rd party liability insurance should be enforced for all bicycles on public highways if it is going to be demanded of these eBikes. It is the lack of these provisions for fast unpowered machines which makes a mockery of the requirement for it on lightly powered ones not capable of taking a rider any faster except uphill (which results in speeds already considered to be acceptable with no insurance).

It's fast bicycles which cause a bigger risk from high speeds on the roads and these must to be the target of any restrictions as to helmets and insurance. They already reach speeds of over 20mph pretty easily. How many riders of eBikes have been proven to have contributory culpability as compared to riders of brakeless fixies or road bikes ? There's no point saying insurance "becomes necessary" with mechanical vs muscle 'leg power' in exactly the same speed zone. It may become easier to point a finger at and pin a badge on (rather like a technically faultless driver who has had a few drinks and is involved in an accident which can't be avoided by any driver) but it doesn't change the outcome.

As far as off-road use is concerned, you can also use 'LPMs' off-road quite happily already (though you may not want to with a direct drive hub) - just switch them off. I defy anyone to claim successfully in a dispute that you are breaking the law cycling any eBike when it is being operated as an unpowered bicycle.

 

[averhamdave]

I defy anyone to claim successfully in a dispute that you are breaking the law cycling any eBike when it is being operated as an unpowered bicycle.

Isn't that like saying I don't need a TV licence because I never watch my TV?

 

[103Alex1]

Isn't that like saying I don't need a TV licence because I never watch my TV?

Not as strong I don't think .. there has to be proof on the TV licence thing. You have to be shown to have had TV or receiving equipment plugged in to be at fault (which is not difficult as there is monitoring equipment which can demonstrate it). Guilt can only be proven with evidence. Granted so can innocence but without evidence culpability can only rest on a presumption of guilt and that is a very rocky path for enforcement to tread. It isn't difficult to insert a key device between power source and controller which can render said bike incapable of being used as a motor vehicle. Xipi bikes have this sort of arrangement for example but can easily be refined. This would only be to prove a case on challenge though - the fact remains if the power ain't on it's not being used as an electric bike. End of !

A switched off eBike capable of being ridden as a regular bicycle is not being used as a motor vehicle, whatever motor might be fitted to it and whatever its capability might be if it were. It is preposterous for anyone to claim that it is in use as such. Obviously if you wanted to rely on that some sort of monitoring / evidence would help prove conclusively but facts are facts. Until you turn the key or press the on switch it is just a bicycle. So as far as I'm concerned if you switch off your bike off-road it can no longer be considered a motor vehicle and can be used anywhere a regular bicycle can be used.

 

[flecc]

I'm afraid that isn't the case Alex, logical as it may sound. The S class bikes are banned from cycle routes, whether switched on or not is irrelevant, if being ridden an offence is committed.

There is a relevant English law test case, that of a cyclist on a pedestrian crossing. The ruling was that if pushed as a pedestrian it was legal, but if as much as one foot was on a pedal and it was scooted, the law was broken.

 

[103Alex1]

^^ that's German law with an express prohibition not English Law. Once again because they know they cannot get enough evidence to prove guilt without it. It's also far more than illogical, it's completely preposterous - like so much of transport regulations.

Sounds more and more like road bikes need banning from the roads without liability insurance and also from places pedestrians are allowed completely... seeing as they can be ridden so fast.

I am wholly unconcerned with cycle routes personally - they are more often than not terrible to ride on at speed and may as well stick to the road. The truth is that in real 'off-road' conditions, barring a freak occurrence outside anyone's control no-one is going to know or care what type of eBike you're riding because if there's an accident the only person you're going to be hurting is yourself.

 

[Yamdude]

According to my sat nav my ebike is doing 16mph, with occasionally 17mph showing up. This is on the flat just using the throttle.
I only have a throttle fitted, no pedel sensor, don't want one. Neither do I have brake cut outs...... illegal ??.... Who cares.... and if those god damn pen pushers up at city hall don't like it, they can kiss my god damn ass.
Laws don't concern us maverick ebikers.

 

[john h]

Having read through this thread,made me think, if this is what it like with or pedelecs, Whats it going to be like when we get or HOVERBOARDS.

 

[GaRRy]

Ah but 17mph is legal as its 15.5 mph but only needs to be accurate to within 10%.

sent by pigeon post

 

[Yamdude]

Ah but 17mph is legal as its 15.5 mph but only needs to be accurate to within 10%.

sent by pigeon post

Yes, but I'm led to believe that having no pedal assist and just using a throttle is illegal for an ebike here in the uk. But my post was more flippant, rather than making a point, because i'm finding it hard to see a big deal about people having ebikes that go over 15 mph.
I actually appreciate the op of this thread providing info on how to get more speed, if I had the same bike as him I would probably do it myself.

 

[GaRRy]

Yes, but I'm led to believe that having no pedal assist and just using a throttle is illegal for an ebike here in the uk. But my post was more flippant, rather than making a point, because i'm finding it hard to see a big deal about people having ebikes that go over 15 mph.
I actually appreciate the op of this thread providing info on how to get more speed, if I had the same bike as him I would probably do it myself.

And you think I was serious.

On a more serious note what is acceptable 20,30,40,50,150 ?

Remember a moped for which you have to pass a test,get Tax, Insurance and wear a helmet is restricted to 30 mph.

sent by pigeon post

 

[Yamdude]

I think its down to each individual to be responsible how and when they use the extra speed they make their ebike capable of.
When you're passing people on a cycle path, even 15mph is too fast.

 

[Artstu]

Remember a moped for which you have to pass a test,get Tax, Insurance and wear a helmet is restricted to 30 mph.

I wish the lad who sold me his moped had told me that, he just said if you've got a car licence it's legal, he also said even though it would do 70 mph it was still legal because it said moped on the log book.

 

[Yamdude]

I've only got into this ebiking malarkey a few weeks ago..... and I find 15mph fast enough on tracks, cycle paths and canal tow paths. Its on the road I want more speed, 15 mph really seems painfully slow sometimes. Even with my disability I can cycle unassisted faster than that for short bursts.
I think if I bought a ready made good quality ebike, for the astronomical prices they seem to command I would want more than 15 mph.... at least 20.

 

[flecc]

^^ that's German law with an express prohibition not English Law.

But you know that at least the same would apply here, given how much more restrictive our authorities are than the German authorities with e-bike issues. Indeed I'd be amazed if that didn't happen, heavy e-bikes travelling at up to 45 kph have no legitimate place mixing with pedestrians.

Sounds more and more like road bikes need banning from the roads without liability insurance and also from places pedestrians are allowed completely... seeing as they can be ridden so fast.

On a speed basis that seems logical, but there's a big issue with the hard metal weight of an e-bike. There's a world of difference between being hit at 20 mph or more by a circa 8 kilo road bike and an up to 40 kilo e-bike at that speed. That can be five times the energy to dissipate through personal injury to the pedestrian.

The rider weight isn't as relevant due to their mass of soft body tissue and clothing, but even there the possibility of much greater weight is that of the e-bike rider. Road bike riders are rarely in the 16 to 25 stone region that so many of our members occupy. These are yet more examples of the sheer number if factors that the authorities and their experts consider when making law. They don't just dream things up off the top of their heads, they consider reports and evidence from all the relevant bodies, including their own road transport research laboratory and often the wide mass of experience of other countries.

But putting aside any differences of opinion in these matters, what is the point of arguing for higher assist speeds when as I've so clearly shown, it will never happen. We've got what we've got, we could conceivably lose some of our present freedom given legislative trends for transport, but we will never gain more freedom. That's an absolute, so there's no point in wishing for the moon.

 

[GaRRy]

I wish the lad who sold me his moped had told me that, he just said if you've got a car licence it's legal, he also said even though it would do 70 mph it was still legal because it said moped on the log book.

I hope you dont intend to use that as your defense if you get caught !!!!

So thats potentially no licence, no insurance (wont be valid), no tax(wrong category) plus a few more like wrongly registered vehicle (not sure correct name for it).

Rather you than me.

sent by pigeon post