Kudos Arriba 25MPH ;-)

[Deleted member 4366]

You are trying to infer that riding a 250 Watt, 15 MPH limited Ebike is no different to riding a higher powered, higher speed machine. This is entirely false.

I'm not trying to infer anything. I do my best to make a statement of fact. I think that your imagination must be distorting your view of the world when you make statements like that. The same with this one:

Why don't the people who own the high power / speed bikes register them as mopeds then? The answer is, they don't want to pay.

How on earth did you jump to that conclusion. Did you send out a questionnaire to a statistically significant number of these guys? I don't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Many of the guys I speak to that own them would be happy to pay to use them legally, but it's extremely difficult to get an electric bicycle registered. If it were just a case of taking the bike to a local test centre to check that the bike was safe to use, and then send off a form and arrange insurance, many would do it, but the test system in place is designed for larger motor vehicles and bears little relevance for electric bicycles. Even if you could get all the documentation in place, you'd have to wear a heavy approved motorcycle helmet, which would make riding a bicycle very uncomfortable. A cycle helmet wouldn't be legal.

 

[flecc]

A quick look at this legislation indicates power must cut off if rider stops pedalling, which I assume outlaws throttles.
Harmonization sounds good on paper but less so when the starting point is that you cant even agree which side of the road to cycle on. Hands up anyone who cant quote a ridiculous piece of European legislation.
Are we losing track of the original post a guy tweaking a bike to provide a smoother ride at 2mph over the limit.
Lets have a bit of toleration or accept our legal system will grind to a halt allowing the real villains to escape justice

Can you quote a ridiculous piece of EU regulation? I doubt it, few EU phobic Britons seem to have much idea what EU law consists of, most hopelessly misquoting or misunderstanding in the way the Daily Mail so often does.

Your point about the original post concerning riding 2 mph over the limit is well made though, and it is permitted. The limit is 25 kph with a 10% tolerance, which translated into mph means the limit of legality is 17.2 mph. The OP has clearly chosen an e-bike with a sharp 15 mph cut-off, but they aren't all like that. Mine powers to about 17 mph when fully charged but with a gentle slope off, meaning no irritating sudden cut-off. The EU law, sensible as ever, actually requires the power to slope off and not suddenly cut off in the way that the stupid British law prescribes.

 

[103Alex1]

Yes necessarily, see these extracts from a post I made before on this subject:

"Assist speed limited to 25 kph/15 mph. This emphasises the need over performance factor, but more importantly it's connected to the fact of no rider proficiency testing. Physical fitness, reaction times, eyesight and hearing are broadly connected, we can be reasonably confident that the fit lycra is overall fairly safe at over 15 mph in these respects. The utility riders who the e-bikes are intended for are often going to be elderly with those facilities often impaired in many ways. They can often be partially disabled with impairments affecting safety. In the absence of rider testing the safety of the public at large has to take precedence.

Connected with the level at which the assist speed limit is set is the effect that evolution has had on our abilities. A fit normal person can run at up to 18 mph, so evolution has developed our senses and reactions to cope best with speeds up to that. As mentioned though, those senses and reaction times deteriorate with age, so given the target group likely common age profile, the assist speed is set a bit lower. Originally in Britain it was set at 12 mph but this was later raised to 15 mph to give some parity with EU law while still being lower than the optimum for the fully fit."

Essentially all safety linked law has to be set to the lowest common denominator to protect in the worst case situation. It was only a few weeks ago that we had a newby posting that having tried the new e-bike that he had just bought he was too terrified by it to continue using it. It was just about the lowest powered and slowest of the current e-bikes on the market today, showing just how low capabilities can be.

It's the disability-led thinking which is at fault here. I am in no way knocking the need to have beaurocracy-free eBikes for elderly/infirm. However I cannot stand by and allow sports cyclists to be considered a superior breed with special dispensation to travel faster on the roads than others their age just because they have the physical fitness to do so.

Let's put the bull**** aside - I want to travel faster from A to B than eBike law permits without having to pay a fortune in tax, insurance etc. to do so. I am not fit enough (nor do I want to be) to do this on leg power alone and become a lycra warrior and wish to do this in comfort as opposed to on a ball-busting back-breaking pain machine. At present the law does not provide a mechanism to permit me to ride an eBike which fits the bill without going for a full moped registration which would create a vehicle I don't necessarily want to ride.

I have 20 years accident-free driving record but this is purely evidence of competency on the roads rather than evidence of being competent to ride a bicycle at speed. Having to keep a valid driving licence will not change that and some one-off competency test is far more appropriate.

There is a hole in the law which boxes out the very class of vehicle I (and many others) do find attractive. So sorry if we're all trampling on the turf of the LCD approach to legislation but somehow or other this bridge will need to be built in future. The costs of vehicle ownership for everyday use have become prohibitive, public transport outside London is a joke and trundling about at 15mph on an eBike for non-City dwellers isn't a viable option for a great many people who are still falling between the cracks. Well, not for very long as my own year-long trial has proven to me quite conclusively.

 

[Jimod]

This thread has surely run its course. The OP made his bike go a little faster, that's all. No children nor fluffy kittens were killed in the process. All those of us with 15mph e-bikes could still do lots of damage if we went along a busy shared path at our 'legal' speed.

 

[RobF]

This thread has surely run its course.

Not quite.

No one has yet quit the forum in a huff and nor has anybody mentioned the war.

 

[flecc]

There is a hole in the law which boxes out the very class of vehicle I (and many others) do find attractive. So sorry if we're all trampling on the turf of the LCD approach to legislation but somehow or other this bridge will need to be built in future.

True, and Germany within the EU and Switzerland outside of it have recognised this and answered it with higher speed and power e-bike classes requiring low levels of bureaucracy, chiefly registration with a number plate, insurance and cycle helmet wearing, plus road only use, cycle tracks/paths not permitted.

The EU is currently looking into an expansion of low powered two wheel vehicle classes, but meanwhile we can have those high speed/power German classes under EU law if our UK government approves. They don't, and nor do any other of the 25 remaining EU countries. So two points are relevant. Firstly the EU is not to blame for the denial, secondly are 26 EU countries wrong and just one right? Clearly the consensus is that 25 kph for unregulated e-bikes is enough.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi And non off the rules cover conversion kit

?????????????????????????

Frank

 

[tillson]

Hi And non off the rules cover conversion kit

?????????????????????????

Frank

What are you talking about?

 

[Alan Quay]

.....nor has anybody mentioned the war.

Flecc mentioned Germany once, but I think he got away with. Any one for hors d'oeuvres? Hors d'oeuvres which must be obeyed!

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk now Free

 

[flecc]

Flecc mentioned Germany once, but I think he got away with.

Probably because I was careful not to say they need their high speed class for the ride into Poland.

 

[e-bike]

Dos anybody here know what the UK Law is called?

 

[los monty]

Can you quote a ridiculous piece of EU regulation? I doubt it, few EU phobic Britons seem to have much idea what EU law consists of, most hopelessly misquoting or misunderstanding in the way the Daily Mail so often does.

Your point about the original post concerning riding 2 mph over the limit is well made though, and it is permitted. The limit is 25 kph with a 10% tolerance, which translated into mph means the limit of legality is 17.2 mph. The OP has clearly chosen an e-bike with a sharp 15 mph cut-off, but they aren't all like that. Mine powers to about 17 mph when fully charged but with a gentle slope off, meaning no irritating sudden cut-off. The EU law, sensible as ever, actually requires the power to slope off and not suddenly cut off in the way that the stupid British law prescribes.

How about the Common Agricultural Policy which somehow allowed a local farmer a few years ago a subsidy to stock proof his land when he was purely arable and the perimeter was secured with adequate hedging.
Before you ask it was done to make life difficult for people crossing his land on public footpaths. And no I am not phobic rather tolerant I suspect but know enough to recognise that the law at times is an ass and greedy solicitors feed extravagantly on interpreting badly drawn up legislation.
The laws say that at 17 having passed a test that person can drive a supercar saner insurance underwriters try on the other hand to make it as difficult as possible. Insurance premiums are a sure indicator that although they may be fit and able bodied many are a risk to themselves and others.
PS was I right about the throttles

 

[RichB]

Having read the thread from start to finish, I can sum up to save anyone else the trouble;

Someone has derestricted their bike, lots of chat about whether it should be legal or not, some think limit should be higher, some don't, some quote obscure laws, some don't.

End result, people are individuals some will derestrict and some won't. Some people will lose their rag about this and some won't.

Personally I'm not bothered either way, and nor are the Government. The hundreds of 'de-restricted' 50cc scooter boys flying around our way is evidence of that.

The end.

 

[flecc]

How about the Common Agricultural Policy which somehow allowed a local farmer a few years ago a subsidy to stock proof his land when he was purely arable and the perimeter was secured with adequate hedging.
Before you ask it was done to make life difficult for people crossing his land on public footpaths. And no I am not phobic rather tolerant I suspect but know enough to recognise that the law at times is an ass and greedy solicitors feed extravagantly on interpreting badly drawn up legislation.
The laws say that at 17 having passed a test that person can drive a supercar saner insurance underwriters try on the other hand to make it as difficult as possible. Insurance premiums are a sure indicator that although they may be fit and able bodied many are a risk to themselves and others.
PS was I right about the throttles

Of course any law can be misused as clearly happened in this case. It's probably impossible to draft a law to prevent any possible misuse under any circumstances. It's under these circumstances that the law is said to be an ass, but that's usually a false accusation since laws must be interpreted with regard to the facts of any individual circumstance to find the relevant spirit of the law. That is a function of judges. No legislature can make perfect law.

Throttles are not banned in the EU, but they have to operate withing the pedelec rules. A number of our e-bikes are like this, throttle only active while pedalling, ensuring the overriding control of the bike is that of normal cycling.

 

[los monty]

Of course any law can be misused as clearly happened in this case. It's probably impossible to draft a law to prevent any possible misuse under any circumstances. It's under these circumstances that the law is said to be an ass, but that's usually a false accusation since laws must be interpreted with regard to the facts of any individual circumstance to find the relevant spirit of the law. That is a function of judges. No legislature can make perfect law.

Throttles are not banned in the EU, but they have to operate withing the pedelec rules. A number of our e-bikes are like this, throttle only active while pedalling, ensuring the overriding control of the bike is that of normal cycling.

OK hands up all those who have operated the throttle without pedalling no cheating now.

Only one thing for it we all pop down the police station tomorrow morning confess and accept the punishment.

On second thoughts I will continue offending in the knowledge that should I ever rob a bank I can speed away at 17mph and hope the beak does not add anything on if I get caught

 

[jazper53]

I have decided to upgrade my present bike by next spring, and will be looking for a bike that gives me the option to travel at 20mph, if this is going to make me the Dick Turpin of the cycle lanes, then so be it. Life is to short to worry about what laws are acceptable to break and which ones are not.

 

[103Alex1]

True, and Germany within the EU and Switzerland outside of it have recognised this and answered it with higher speed and power e-bike classes requiring low levels of bureaucracy, chiefly registration with a number plate, insurance and cycle helmet wearing, plus road only use, cycle tracks/paths not permitted.

The EU is currently looking into an expansion of low powered two wheel vehicle classes, but meanwhile we can have those high speed/power German classes under EU law if our UK government approves. They don't, and nor do any other of the 25 remaining EU countries. So two points are relevant. Firstly the EU is not to blame for the denial, secondly are 26 EU countries wrong and just one right? Clearly the consensus is that 25 kph for unregulated e-bikes is enough.

Who is blaming the EU ? In most of Europe, people just go ahead and ride derestricted eBikes if they want to and no-one cares to make a big moral song & dance about it. Especially Eastern and Southern Europe, with the possible exception of Malta.

I think it's more likely that only in Germany and Switzerland has there been enough pressure put on the govt to accommodate these bikes, and enough of a progressive attitude in govt, whereas in other countries people have just quietly got on with it and ridden them anyway contra to legislative constraints. The Netherlands, being a land of tootling cyclists with a good alternative public transport infrastructure isn't really a representative benchmark to invoke.

The most recent changes in Switzerland are a relaxation and it's more a case of legislation being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. Against a load of scaremongering pressure groups - and they still haven't gone far enough.

As to 25 EU countries being wrong and just one right ... I am more inclined to look at non-European countries with more relaxed provisions as being the most appropriate ones. Europe is not the centre of the Universe and there is a great deal European governments don't get right.

 

[flecc]

OK hands up all those who have operated the throttle without pedalling no cheating now.

Can't be done though on the bikes I meant. In those the throttle is within the pedelec circuit, stop pedalling and the throttle is inactive.

 

[flecc]

Who is blaming the EU ? In most of Europe, people just go ahead and ride derestricted eBikes if they want to and no-one cares to make a big moral song & dance about it. Especially Eastern and Southern Europe, with the possible exception of Malta.

I think it's more likely that only in Germany and Switzerland has there been enough pressure put on the govt to accommodate these bikes, and enough of a progressive attitude in govt, whereas in other countries people have just quietly got on with it and ridden them anyway contra to legislative constraints. The Netherlands, being a land of tootling cyclists with a good alternative public transport infrastructure isn't really a representative benchmark to invoke.

The most recent changes in Switzerland are a relaxation and it's more a case of legislation being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. Against a load of scaremongering pressure groups - and they still haven't gone far enough.

As to 25 EU countries being wrong and just one right ... I am more inclined to look at non-European countries with more relaxed provisions as being the most appropriate ones. Europe is not the centre of the Universe and there is a great deal European governments don't get right.

But it's where e-bikes are by far the most popular and sold in vast numbers that the EU law is obeyed and respected. The disobedient ones, particularly in southern Europe, hardly have much e-biking in comparison. Eastern Europe hardly knew e-bikes existed until very recently and don't have much e-biking yet. That's why there's no moral song and dance in those places, there isn't the e-bike law breaking or even enough e-bike riding to prompt it.

Even here in Britain there's no moral song and dance about illegal e-bikes among the general population, most hardly know e-bikes even exist and almost none have a clue that there is any e-bike law. It's only here in an e-bike forum that the matter is discussed and I think it an entirely proper subject for discussion.

Once again I say the law isn't about what individuals want, there are individuals who want everything including even the right to murder. The law exists solely to protect society, and the lowest common denominator is therefore the correct setting point for any restriction.

Also Alex, do you really think that our e-bikers wanting higher assist speeds would welcome that German law? No use of cycle paths, bridlepaths or Sustrans routes. Compulsory registration and third party insurance, number plate, compulsory cycle helmet wearing. I don't think they want that at all, I get the impression they want every freedom they've got at present plus the higher speeds and higher powers.

 

[tillson]

End result, people are individuals some will derestrict and some won't. Some people will lose their rag about this and some won't.

Personally I'm not bothered either way, and nor are the Government. The hundreds of 'de-restricted' 50cc scooter boys flying around our way is evidence of that.

The end.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. A free for all can't exist, or else where does it all end? If the limit is drawn at 20 MPH people will want 25 MPH. If it limit is set at 25 MPH, people will want 30.

I'm not sure if 15 MPH is the correct speed for assistance to cut off, but from my experience it mimics utility riding fairly closely, so I don't think 15 MPH is far off a sensible speed at which to restrict power delivery.

If you or a member of your family were injured by a electric bike colliding with them at say 35 MPH being ridden under power in a 40 MPH limit area, would you be satisfied if the police said to you, "hard luck mate, there are unrestricted scooters in this area, so we aren't going to take any action against the ebike rider" ? Then followed it up with, "Oh and by the way, forget any compo, he's not insured. Live with it." I don't know you, but I think you would be a bit vocal about the situation. But this is precisely what your contribution to the discussion is suggesting.

I repeat, there has to be a line drawn, we have to respect that line and we have to act in a responsible way. As flecc has said, it's not about what we want as an individual, it is what is best for everyone. In order to live together, we have to compromise on some things and occasionally accept a situation that doesn't suit us entirely.

Just as a side issue. A friend of mine has a 250 Watt Ezee conversion kit on his bike. No throttle, just a pedal rotation sensor. I had a go on the bike and it flew up a steep hill at 14 MPH and all I was doing was turning the pedals, contributing virtually nothing. This is what ebikes are about, taking away the bad bits to cycling, hills, headwind etc. The current crop of legal equipment is very adequate and a generous compromise given that it enjoys very little regulation. Keep it that way, don't spoil it.