Kudos Arriba 25MPH ;-)

Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
A friend of mine has a 250 Watt Ezee conversion kit on his bike. No throttle, just a pedal rotation sensor. I had a go on the bike and it flew up a steep hill at 14 MPH and all I was doing was turning the pedals, contributing virtually nothing. This is what ebikes are about, taking away the bad bits to cycling, hills, headwind etc.
Not everyone wants a high powered bike that gets you up hills like that and then cuts off the assistance at 15 mph. I want less help on the hill, but I want that lower level of help at whatever speed I'm riding. So that may be what an e-bike means to you, but don't assume that's what we all want.
 

Fordulike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2010
3,802
1,538
Law rights and wrongs aside, I've always believed it's the way you present yourself anywhere that you ride, that can become an issue at whatever speed or power.
Yes, you are most likely going to feel the full force of the law if you are involved in an accident on a heavily modded bike. But so are you if you ride a non powered bike like an idiot.
In the three or more years of riding a powered bike, I've never knowingly come across another ebike on my travels. I've ridden thousands of miles and passed hundreds of cyclists.
I've seen one guy fly over his handlebars right in front of me with a combination of inexperience of front hydraulic brakes and not paying attention. He was lucky to be wearing a helmet and not end up in hospital.
A few skid, slide type dismounts too. The offenders usually shake themselves off and we have a giggle about it, but things could have been so much worse.
Always ride to the conditions, know your bike and pay attention ;)
Many many incidences of groups of cyclists totally hogging the path going both ways. Even a polite ring on the bell seems to inconvenience them to move over slightly to let you pass. No rush, I'll just tag on behind until it's safe to pass.
Also, many incidences of cyclists flying round a blind corner with nary a clue to who or what's coming up. I'm always wary of blind corners and slow right down. Why take the risk!
And generally a lack of awareness of their surroundings, vehicles, pedestrians and bikes around them.
Yes, my bike can go a little faster than the average ebike, and yes, it can power up hills as though they weren't there, but what I do use is a lot of common sense, spacial awareness and courtesy.
I have never upset, inconvenienced or been involved in an accident with anyone!
Some will say luck and my time will come, but until then, I will continue to utilize these skills and watch others make fools of themselves.
 
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EddiePJ

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 7, 2013
4,632
4,013
Crowborough, East Sussex
www.facebook.com
Just as a side issue. A friend of mine has a 250 Watt Ezee conversion kit on his bike. No throttle, just a pedal rotation sensor. I had a go on the bike and it flew up a steep hill at 14 MPH and all I was doing was turning the pedals, contributing virtually nothing. This is what ebikes are about, taking away the bad bits to cycling, hills, headwind etc.

I use Strava just to keep a check on my riding and map it out, and one particular hill that I went up yesterday and once previously, is 0.9mile long, has an elevation difference of 446ft and an average grade of 9.1%
My time of 4.43 minutes has been identical to the second on both occasions, but more importantly to your comment in bold above, I am now currently fourth fastest up the hill, out of 2,563 other riders, and that was without me even really trying. The average speed was 11.9mph

That figure puts into perspective just how easy that hill climbing is on an off the shelf 250 watt pedal assist e-bike.


edit.. I did feel a bit guilty as I passed the lycra clad lad on his race bike, who was standing up on his pedals struggling to get up it. :)
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
Not everyone wants a high powered bike that gets you up hills like that and then cuts off the assistance at 15 mph. I want less help on the hill, but I want that lower level of help at whatever speed I'm riding. So that may be what an e-bike means to you, but don't assume that's what we all want.
I simply quoted the EZee kit as an example. There are a multitude of configurations possible within the legal parameters and within the range of equipment on the market.

I gather that YOU want assistance beyond 15 MPH. But the point being made, is that it's not about what YOU want. There has to be a line, boundaries and limits or else the situation will become unmanageable and dangerous.

If you want to travel faster than 15 MPH on two wheels whilst under power, why don't you do it legally and buy a moped?
 

SRS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 30, 2012
847
347
South Coast
I simply quoted the EZee kit as an example. There are a multitude of configurations possible within the legal parameters and within the range of equipment on the market.

I gather that YOU want assistance beyond 15 MPH. But the point being made, is that it's not about what YOU want. There has to be a line, boundaries and limits or else the situation will become unmanageable and dangerous.

If you want to travel faster than 15 MPH on two wheels whilst under power, why don't you do it legally and buy a moped?
Always comes back to the same. Why don't you buy a moped? Well, my answer would be because I don't want a heavy 50mph vehicle and the associated costs .

I need a low weight cycle that I can get from A to B in a reasonable timescale. One that gives me daily exercise and keeps me fit.

One that I can carry upstairs and park in my office. One that I can maintain for minimal cost with a basic toolkit. One where I do not have to pay someone else for my very existence.

Most of all, one that doesn't cut out just as I get going.

For why the powers that be think that it is their purpose to decide how fast to slow I travel to work is beyond me. I'll stick to a safe speed for the particular conditions and that is good enough for me.

For those who have been brainwashed by the authorities and believe they need guidance and rules for every aspect of life, good luck to you.
 

Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
If you want to travel faster than 15 MPH on two wheels whilst under power, why don't you do it legally and buy a moped?
Funny you should say that, I have two mopeds, both now do about 70 mph ;) hmm there's a theme going on here........
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I'll stick to a safe speed for the particular conditions and that is good enough for me.
I can well believe that, you are probably right that is good enough for you. Unfortunately not everyone has your particular combination of good judgement and common sense, the world is far from short of idiots. For them the authorities allow their own unaided progress, but for obvious reasons aren't going to power assist them to do more.

Of course that's inconvenient for both you and me, but blanket laws cannot be made for every individual. However, the authorities are aware of the need so make provisions for us to enjoy a different law. They do that using various devices such as the CBT and driving test, through which we can prove our superior abilities to qualify for greater freedom, and single vehicle approval with which we can prove the suitability of our proposed transport.

So no-one is stopping you doing anything at present.
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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Also Alex, do you really think that our e-bikers wanting higher assist speeds would welcome that German law? No use of cycle paths, bridlepaths or Sustrans routes. Compulsory registration and third party insurance, number plate, compulsory cycle helmet wearing. I don't think they want that at all, I get the impression they want every freedom they've got at present plus the higher speeds and higher powers.
I can't speak for anyone else but wouldn't mind those restrictions at all, including use of a full face helmet (a motorbike one is ridiculously over the top for a 45 kph bicycle). In the States where higher powered bikes are common, DH-type helmets are also common. I don't use designated cycle paths unless I am effectively forced to, only usually use my bikes off-road in proper "off-road" terrain (and where I don't reach high speeds and in all likelihood no-one cares) and mainly on-road in any event. So no it doesn't bother me at all provided I can get from A to B faster (20-25mph average or so) with some exercise and for 5p off my battery rather than guzzling fuel, paying extortionate insurance costs and having to pay tax + 3rd parties to sign off on my bike on an annual basis.

E-Bikes up to about 500W go slower than road bikes except up steep hills. Period. They are not and never will be remotely in the same category as proper scooters. Perhaps the solution is to add considerable greater restrictions on the use of road/hybrid bikes on the public highway - requirement for a driving licence, helmet and 3rd party insurance for starters. Seeing as they have the capability to be ridden just as fast and often faster than LPMs. If that sounds ridiculous then the eBike legislation certainly is and whilst a concensus of sorts may be there that doesn't make that concensus fair and reasonable. It is this discrimination in treatment of anything "assisted" which I cannot accept. Lift the restrictions or impose greater regulation on fast bicycles. One of the two.

I think the German S-Pedelec law is over the top on the restrictions (as they are a generally pretty interfering nation though often in a more constructive way than here). As I have repeatedly said I don;t think the EU laws are the ones to go for. They are far too restrictive.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Of course any law can be misused as clearly happened in this case. It's probably impossible to draft a law to prevent any possible misuse under any circumstances. It's under these circumstances that the law is said to be an ass, but that's usually a false accusation since laws must be interpreted with regard to the facts of any individual circumstance to find the relevant spirit of the law. That is a function of judges. No legislature can make perfect law.

Throttles are not banned in the EU, but they have to operate withing the pedelec rules. A number of our e-bikes are like this, throttle only active while pedalling, ensuring the overriding control of the bike is that of normal cycling.
Flecc,not completely true....the Germans have specifically banned throttles,quite recently. But as you say throttles can be used up to 25kph but are only active when pedals are turning.
KudosDave
 

averhamdave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 13, 2009
340
-3
Now that the "UK Off Road" section of the Pedelec forum has been established can the moderators assure us that every post is not going to be hijacked by the self appointed "speed police" as this one has?

This all started with a chap realising that he could coax a little more speed from his 250w bike and telling us how he did it.

If Tillson, Flecc and co have an agenda that is to drive away those with non standard, modified even ebikes from this forum then you are doing a good job.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Who is blaming the EU ? In most of Europe, people just go ahead and ride derestricted eBikes if they want to and no-one cares to make a big moral song & dance about it. Especially Eastern and Southern Europe, with the possible exception of Malta.

I think it's more likely that only in Germany and Switzerland has there been enough pressure put on the govt to accommodate these bikes, and enough of a progressive attitude in govt, whereas in other countries people have just quietly got on with it and ridden them anyway contra to legislative constraints. The Netherlands, being a land of tootling cyclists with a good alternative public transport infrastructure isn't really a representative benchmark to invoke.

The most recent changes in Switzerland are a relaxation and it's more a case of legislation being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. Against a load of scaremongering pressure groups - and they still haven't gone far enough.

As to 25 EU countries being wrong and just one right ... I am more inclined to look at non-European countries with more relaxed provisions as being the most appropriate ones. Europe is not the centre of the Universe and there is a great deal European governments don't get right.
Sorry thats not true,well at least not in Utrecht in Holland....I exhibited at a 50plus show and one of the first questions we got asked was did it have EN15194. This was closely followed by a maintenance contract,a leasing deal,a guaranteed final value and anti-theft insurance,trying to make it go faster above 25kph was not even mentioned-the show was 6 days long,80,000 attendees so it was representative.
This is in contrast to the recent Birmingham NEC cycle show,in order of popularity of questions...
How far does it go? 35miles
Does it recharge when pedalling? No
How much does it cost? £495.00 to £1295.00...thats usually followed by thats a rip off or thats very cheap,no consistency in value judgement
How fast does it go? 15mph......usually followed by my bike goes quicker than that,how can I make it faster? I was never asked that question in Holland!
KudosDave
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
1982 EAPC regulations
Small correction Dave, 1983 EAPC regulations. (EAPC = Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles).

In addition the 1988 Road Transport Act specifies a 14 years lower age limit for riding EAPCs and the Pedal Cycles Construction and Use Regulation 1983 and BS1727 are needed for all the specifications necessary for UK legal compliance.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
If Tillson, Flecc and co have an agenda that is to drive away those with non standard, modified even ebikes from this forum then you are doing a good job.
I don't have any agenda. I merely point out what the reasons are for the law and give my opinion that the law is in the main reasonable. The site and forum is named pedelecs, and a pedelec is specifically an electrically assisted pedal cycle with power controlled only by the pedals and restricted to a 25 kph assist limit.

There is no such thing as an e-bike in UK or EU law.
 

Jimod

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 9, 2010
1,065
634
Polmont
How fast does it go? 15mph......usually followed by my bike goes quicker than that,how can I make it faster?
KudosDave
I've been asked that any times. People mostly don't realise you can pedal faster than that but it's just the motor which cuts out.
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
3
Tamworth
Funny you should say that, I have two mopeds, both now do about 70 mph ;) hmm there's a theme going on here........
Yea your right unless they were made before about 1978 (cant remember the exact year) they are just as illegal as a ebike that can do more than 15 mph.
 

averhamdave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 13, 2009
340
-3
I'm doing my best not to get drawn into this petty argument you continue to fuel but!

I used the term "e-bike" because I couldn't be bothered to type "electrically assisted pedal cycle". My apologies.

The forum's about whatever the administrator/owner of the forum wants it to be about and a section has been set up for "off road" bikes developing more than 250w. I'm looking for reassurance that people like you, who I have held in high esteem this last 5/6 years are not permitted to kill it before it has got off the ground.
 

Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
Yea your right unless they were made before about 1978 (cant remember the exact year) they are just as illegal as a ebike that can do more than 15 mph.
oh heck I am a naughty boy then :p
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I'm doing my best not to get drawn into this petty argument you continue to fuel but!

I used the term "e-bike" because I couldn't be bothered to type "electrically assisted pedal cycle". My apologies.

The forum's about whatever the administrator/owner of the forum wants it to be about and a section has been set up for "off road" bikes developing more than 250w. I'm looking for reassurance that people like you, who I have held in high esteem this last 5/6 years are not permitted to kill it before it has got off the ground.
Understood Dave, my comment about e-bikes was not specifically aimed at you. I'm entirely happy for the site to have a specific Off-Road forum and how fast people want to ride or what power they have off road is their business.

But I have an opinion that the on-road law is reasonable and feel I am entitled to state that, arguing in support of it. I also believe that those who argue for higher on road speeds and greater power are like flies bashing repeatedly on a window in an effort to pass through. The fact is that there is not a hope in hell that the law is going to be changed to allow higher speeds or more power so all calls for that are completely pointless*. They only draw attention to the widespread abuse of the law which could eventually negatively impinge on all of us.

*Why will there be no relaxation change in the law? The DfT has made it very firmly clear that it won't be eased. The EU Commission has rebuffed the European Parliament's attempt at easement. The EU pedelecs law has been adopted by Australia and is intended to be the new China wide law. All current UK and EU transport measures are towards more restriction, not less. In view of all these attitudes and the current worldwide spread of the pedelecs law, the possibility of easement is virtually zero, but we could get more restriction.
.
 

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