Is enough being done to bring new consumers to e-bikes?
- Thread starter Mark Loveridge
- Start date
I'm afraid it doesn't seem to follow always. In the Netherlands and Germany where e-bike sales are huge, the prices of ebikes, batteries etc are as high and often even higher than here in the UK.
I seem to be the variable in how easy it is to ride my e-bikes without power assistance. Some days I can ride all the way to the superstore without switching the motor on. Other days I can't get around the first corner without it feeling like too much effort. It must be me: nothing changes on the bike from day to day. Perhaps this isn't such a difficult idea to sell to a prospective e-bike buyer though: "Some days you'll feel you need the motor and some you won't - it's always there for you if you need it."
It's academic if some find hub-motor bikes ok to ride without power, this thread is about popularising e-bikes in a country where the mass of the population don't want to pedal anything ever. They certainly won't find pedalling an e-bike without power agreeable, full stop.
The only e-bikes that will win them over are adequately powered ones with throttles that can carry them moped fashion around their area. When they try one like that there's a good chance they'll buy into the concept. Let them try one that needs pedalling off the mark to get the power to cut in, and/or needs pedalling all the time and most are lost at that point.
The proof of all this has long been out there from previous sales experiences.
The only e-bikes that will win them over are adequately powered ones with throttles that can carry them moped fashion around their area. When they try one like that there's a good chance they'll buy into the concept. Let them try one that needs pedalling off the mark to get the power to cut in, and/or needs pedalling all the time and most are lost at that point.
The proof of all this has long been out there from previous sales experiences.
I agree with Flecc, people, me for example, didn't buy an E-bike because it was easy to pedal without power. I bought it because it had power. I've only once had to ride a couple of miles home when the battery went flat and that was only because I was trying to flatten the battery. I now have a spare battery so I won't ever ride without power again. I also kind of agree about the throttle, I really wanted one but the Kudos came without and when I first tried the bike I realised I didn't need one.
One thing that would put me off an E-bike is, those bikes where they sense how hard you're pedaling and apply more power the harder you pedal. You could forget that rubbish as far as I'm concerned and I'm sure as far as most people thinking of buying an E-bike are concerned too. When I'm too lazy or simply can't be a*sed to pedal hard I want those little hamsters in my back wheel to keep doing their stuff.
Most people don't want an E-Bike or don't think they want one. If they can pedal without power they don't need one and if they think they have to pedal hard to get the motor to give power they don't want one.
I'm not in sales but if I were, I'd be marketing 3 different ways to 3 different audiences. To lazy old beggers like me I'd be mentioning that the bike will do 15MPH on the flat with me turning the pedals slowly. To more fit/less lazy people of my age who might have been cycling for years I'd market it as a bit of assistance on hills which makes your journey easier and more fun. To commuters I'd mention the fact that a bike can get you through the rush hour and an E-Bike does it without you getting out of breath and sweaty.
I love my e-bike and I've been places on it I just wouldn't have gone on a push bike, mostly because I wouldn't be buying a push bike. I've never used my bike on the road in anything less than power level 5, if I had a power level 6 I'd be using that.
As I said in a previous post, I don't see the point in me buying an E-bike and then me doing all the work.
One thing that would put me off an E-bike is, those bikes where they sense how hard you're pedaling and apply more power the harder you pedal. You could forget that rubbish as far as I'm concerned and I'm sure as far as most people thinking of buying an E-bike are concerned too. When I'm too lazy or simply can't be a*sed to pedal hard I want those little hamsters in my back wheel to keep doing their stuff.
Most people don't want an E-Bike or don't think they want one. If they can pedal without power they don't need one and if they think they have to pedal hard to get the motor to give power they don't want one.
I'm not in sales but if I were, I'd be marketing 3 different ways to 3 different audiences. To lazy old beggers like me I'd be mentioning that the bike will do 15MPH on the flat with me turning the pedals slowly. To more fit/less lazy people of my age who might have been cycling for years I'd market it as a bit of assistance on hills which makes your journey easier and more fun. To commuters I'd mention the fact that a bike can get you through the rush hour and an E-Bike does it without you getting out of breath and sweaty.
I love my e-bike and I've been places on it I just wouldn't have gone on a push bike, mostly because I wouldn't be buying a push bike. I've never used my bike on the road in anything less than power level 5, if I had a power level 6 I'd be using that.
As I said in a previous post, I don't see the point in me buying an E-bike and then me doing all the work.I am totally with Jimod on this one. I cycled for years until the hills became too much. Now I have an e-bike, I only pedal going up hills. To me, its like my old cyclemaster and early single gear mopeds, basically a very light motor bike that needs to be pedalled up hills.
Statements like that show why we should be careful about criticizing diehard anti e-bike cyclists. Even among ebikers there are people with with the same blind attitudes.
So, Panasonic, Bosch, Yamaha and any other pedelec systems are 'rubbish' then? And there's me thinking that it's nice to have two distinct forms of electric assist and my next bike might be a hub motor one.
I must banish that idea - obviously as I have a Kalkhoff Panasonic, I need to think hub bikes are rubbish
It's such a strange idea, that because I don't like something it is rubbish.If you both ask your non biking friends which system they would like if they were to buy an ebike. Ask them if they want one where the harder they pedal the more power they get in assist or where they get full assist without pedaling hard and see which the vast majority of people say. E-bikes in the EU can't have throttles so remember and tell them that.
The systems which you mention, are you saying they wouldn't work without a torque sensor and with only a simple pedal sensor which powers up the engine as long as the pedals are turning? If so, how would people who have knee problems get on with them?
The pedalec system on my bike gives full power no matter how hard or slow you pedal.
I never said hub drives were rubbish. Where did you see that in my post?
Anyway, my post was in reply to the OP about getting more people into ebiking.
The systems which you mention, are you saying they wouldn't work without a torque sensor and with only a simple pedal sensor which powers up the engine as long as the pedals are turning? If so, how would people who have knee problems get on with them?
The pedalec system on my bike gives full power no matter how hard or slow you pedal.
I never said hub drives were rubbish. Where did you see that in my post?
Anyway, my post was in reply to the OP about getting more people into ebiking.
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The OP asked how to get more people into e-biking.
These people could come from present cyclists wanting a bit of help or non cyclists who want a lot of help.
For the first category, the proportional pedelec is ideal.
For the second group it is a non starter.
These people could come from present cyclists wanting a bit of help or non cyclists who want a lot of help.
For the first category, the proportional pedelec is ideal.
For the second group it is a non starter.
Which one is that? The Panasonic system doesn't and neither does the Bosch or Yamaha. I'd have thought they were the rubbish that power most pedelec systems
You ride a hub power bike and that leads you to say that all pedelec systems are rubbish. So from that premise, I extend it to say that since I ride a pedelec, if I take on your perspective, I must think that all hub bikes are rubbish. It's irony.
I don't say anywhere that you think hub bikes are rubbish.
On the original point, I think there are four things that would drive up e-bike sales.
1. Celebrities seen riding them. If Kate Middleton, Tom Cruise and David Beckham and Stella McCartney were seen regularly riding ebikes, sales would rocket among younger people.
2. lower prices
3. longer range
4. more speed.
I don't see any of these coming to fruition in the foreseeable future, unfortunately.
Yes, that's very effective. A few high image Hollywood stars like DiCaprio owning and driving the Toyoya Prius did wonders for it's sales
I hadn't actually thought of Tom Cruise and the Prius as a concrete example but yes, that probably did more for it than Toyota's advertising spend. I doubt that Cruise pays for his Prius - I wonder if they pay him?
If Stella McCartney was seen around town sensibly but stylishly dressed, turning up at a fashion show or restaurant and chaining an ebike up outside, what that would do for the image of the things.
Years ago I went round to photograph Stirling Moss in his house(s) in Mayfair and he told me never used a car in London, too slow and too hard to park - this 40 years ago!
I photographed him with his Vespa scooter scooter outside his house and zipping through traffic and it brought in shoals of letters amazed that such a man would ride a scooter. Must have ramped up Vespas sales in the short term at least.
Moss is a man totally unconcerned with 'cool' or image. He was a busy and successful businessman who needed to waste as little time as possible getting around central London. These days with parking problems with two wheelers as well, an e-bike would fulfil the same function but better. But how to get people to appreciate that, that is the question?
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Regarding throttles and power delivery: I'm with Jimod on this one. I've said it before on this forum that it makes me wonder if any of the software designers ever actually ride the bikes using their controllers. The lack of being able to travel with minimum or no effort will definitely put off a large percentage of prospective e-bikers, i.e. those that don't want to or are unable to make any effort. Present systems are fine for cyclists that just want help up hills and into the wind or to maintain a slightly higher average speed.
To me the ideal system is one that gives adjustable power as soon as you start pedalling, the power being adjustable between zero and full power by means of a power control knob or panel. Then, the addition of a throttle that can over-ride the pedal control system so that you can travel without pedalling if you want.
If I remember, the Storck Raddar had something similar, but when I rode it, I only used full power for hill-climbing, so I didn't really get a chance to explore it, The Bosch-motored Haibike wasn't bad simply because it gave a lot of power, so you didn't have to pedal very hard, but without throttles, neither would be suitable for unfit non-cyclists.
It seems to me that most of the efforts in the industry seem to be directed towards existing cyclists. They need to think about other target markets. Some have tried with the electric scooter types, but with only a nominal 250watts, they're pretty useless when it comes to hills.
To me the ideal system is one that gives adjustable power as soon as you start pedalling, the power being adjustable between zero and full power by means of a power control knob or panel. Then, the addition of a throttle that can over-ride the pedal control system so that you can travel without pedalling if you want.
If I remember, the Storck Raddar had something similar, but when I rode it, I only used full power for hill-climbing, so I didn't really get a chance to explore it, The Bosch-motored Haibike wasn't bad simply because it gave a lot of power, so you didn't have to pedal very hard, but without throttles, neither would be suitable for unfit non-cyclists.
It seems to me that most of the efforts in the industry seem to be directed towards existing cyclists. They need to think about other target markets. Some have tried with the electric scooter types, but with only a nominal 250watts, they're pretty useless when it comes to hills.
I think you are flogging a dead horse there. Someone so unfit is better served by the present range of cheap to buy, run and insure 50cc scooters.
Their overall cost is no greater than running an ebike and they are faster, more comfortable and have unlimited range. Certainly if I become so unfit or overweight as not to be able to pedal at all, I'll ditch the ebike and get a petrol scooter to back up the car.
I can see immense advantages in doing so now, as a matter of fact - except that I enjoy cycling.
The reason ebikes don't sell in quantity is that they are a niche product. If you are fit you don't need one. If you are unfit, a petrol scooter is better in almost every way - it can even have weather protection.
Leaving people like me and you who are not only willing to pedal and pay quite a heavy price for a bit of power assistance but enjoy it too.
Anyone who offers a bike with the kind of power you are envisaging will be trying to sell a machine with a very expensive high capacity battery or otherwise a very short range. It's just not practical in my view. The average guy will take one look at the price or the range and see that petrol power is far more practical than the present day and foreseeable future ebike technology.
I personally don't mind whether people buy ebikes or not as I'm not a dealer. We neither design or build them in this country so in the end we will accept what our continental and Asian cousins who are still capable of design and manufacture deem we should have. That is the fact of it.
My heart is with you but I am afraid my head is not.
Lemmy, either you or I don't understand 'torque sensor systems' My bike is a simple pedal sensor, it senses when I move the pedals, it doesn't care how hard or soft I'm pedaling as long as they're going round. It then works the motor and it will give full power. A torque sensor, as I undestand it, will sense how much pressure you're putting on the pedals and will give power assistance depending on how much you have set it to. I'm sure the Kalkhof has that and gives up to 2 or 2.5 times what you put in.
To get more people onto e-bikes. I believe the simple pedal sensor is the way. As soon as most people hear that they have to put in lots of work they won't want an e-bike.
I never said all pedelec systems were rubbish. I really like mine complete with its hub motor.
If I've misunderstood torque sensors then I appologise but I'm only going on what I read on a site about Kalkhoffs.
To get more people onto e-bikes. I believe the simple pedal sensor is the way. As soon as most people hear that they have to put in lots of work they won't want an e-bike.
I never said all pedelec systems were rubbish. I really like mine complete with its hub motor.
If I've misunderstood torque sensors then I appologise but I'm only going on what I read on a site about Kalkhoffs.
You are quite correct Jimod, that is how the torque sensors on most crank drive systems and some hub-motor bikes work. In other words, these systems are directly related to the physics of normal cycling, more need is answered by more effort, but jointly from rider and motor. The motor is there to assist the cyclist's contribution, keeping the bike as true to cycling as possible by making the rider's muscles effectively bionic in output.
The system you and many others prefer is more moped like in character.
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The system you and many others prefer is more moped like in character.
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Interesting thread Mark and I like your site and the research you're doing, very interesting and useful stuff.
In the town where I live in Worcestershire with a 100k population I've only ever seen one other electric bike owner (aged 50+) although I see many cyclists daily of all ages, mostly young men but occasionally women too. I haven't checked, but I doubt there's even a single local seller of e-bikes in my town with the exception of Halfords.
People who have seen my bike act as though it's the only electric bike in existence and something I've just "invented" myself!
I do think there is a genuine lack of awareness among large sections of the general public about electric bikes still. That said, there is a lot of interest on YouTube with people making videos of their bikes and rides now which is starting to generate more interest. I've had questions and requests from people who have seen my own videos.
It feels like the industry is still in its infancy phase even though in reality its been established a while now. Like someone else said, once people see how much fun they are to ride they usually want one. Each customer or ebike owner is effectively an advertisement then for the product. Perhaps the industry should be incentivising "referral" business from customers and looking to grow that way if the money isn't available to do mainstream advertising.
Now we are living in economically challenging times I guess its a good opportunity for the industry to get people to swap their cars or use them less, in favour of e-bikes, if businesses can be persuaded to support the cycle to work finance scheme. I know we keep saying it, but I feel the government could be playing a bigger role and giving the industry more help.
In the town where I live in Worcestershire with a 100k population I've only ever seen one other electric bike owner (aged 50+) although I see many cyclists daily of all ages, mostly young men but occasionally women too. I haven't checked, but I doubt there's even a single local seller of e-bikes in my town with the exception of Halfords.
People who have seen my bike act as though it's the only electric bike in existence and something I've just "invented" myself!
I do think there is a genuine lack of awareness among large sections of the general public about electric bikes still. That said, there is a lot of interest on YouTube with people making videos of their bikes and rides now which is starting to generate more interest. I've had questions and requests from people who have seen my own videos.
It feels like the industry is still in its infancy phase even though in reality its been established a while now. Like someone else said, once people see how much fun they are to ride they usually want one. Each customer or ebike owner is effectively an advertisement then for the product. Perhaps the industry should be incentivising "referral" business from customers and looking to grow that way if the money isn't available to do mainstream advertising.
Now we are living in economically challenging times I guess its a good opportunity for the industry to get people to swap their cars or use them less, in favour of e-bikes, if businesses can be persuaded to support the cycle to work finance scheme. I know we keep saying it, but I feel the government could be playing a bigger role and giving the industry more help.
Though true in vehicle terms, it's not always true in human terms. The common bogeymen are the needs for a driving licence, CBT, m/c helmet, insurance, MOT and other legal compliances like parking.
A high torque e-bike solves all those problems and is often suited to the older people who don't have a suitable licence, don't want complications and don't want to career around at any great speed. If the removal of e-bike power restriction goes ahead, I think that market might expand.
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