Is enough being done to bring new consumers to e-bikes?

[12xu22]

the weight is a BIG issue ... although every manufacturer markets their e-foldies as light and convenient, having owned three such bikes in the last 6 months I can confirm that there's not a cat in hell's chance you would ever take one of these on public transport, well, not without rupturing yourself in the process. You can, however, get them in the boot of your car, although even this is a feat of weightlifting prowess. I also own a non-electric foldie (DAHON Speed D7), this seems light as a feather in comparison and you genuinely could take it on a train without too much hassle. Now, the Dahon weighs about 11kg, and the lightest ebike I was able to find, my Fast4ward Edge is 19kg. Bear in mind that the Edge is considerably lighter than most other ebikes and that most would weight at least TWICE as much as the Dahon. I think it's time that manufacturers stopped pretending that a 25kg bike is light: it's not, it's the equivalent of lugging a saack of spuds around and I don't see too many people getting on the tube with a 50lb sack of king edwards. And yet, here's some blurb from www.electricbikeexperts.co.uk:

"...The best commuter bikes are folding electric bicycles which can collapse into a small bag or a rucksack. Not only does this mean they can be carried on trains or the underground with ease, but they can also be discretely carried into an office – leaving a bike outside increases the likelihood of it getting nicked!..."

Pure fantasy, let me tell you.

 

[flecc]

Yes, even those firm folder fans, A to B magazine, state that no e-folder weight has yet been acceptable.

I don't think weight is an issue for full distance e-bike commuting though, just so long as the bike doesn't have to lugged indoors for parking at either end.

 

[Salad Dodger]

This is a great thread. Can I chip in my thoughts?

I think there are a few particular groups who, for different reasons, are inherently more interested in e-bikes than "Joe Average" would be....

In no particular order, I would suggest that e-bikes might appeal to:

1) Ex cyclists or returning cyclists.
Maybe the kind of people who used to like cycling, but who can't now do what they once did due to health concerns, gammy knees and the like. They used to enjoy the freedom of two wheeled travel, and are well aware of the hazards of traffic etc but would happily cycle with a bit of assistance on hills and longer trips.

2) The ecologically concerned.
Would ride an e-bike if it meant that they could do without a car. As long as the e-bike was, itself, reasonably "environmentally friendly" and didnt sport too big a carbon footprint. Just saying to them that a bike is not as bad for the environment as a car might not be enough to overcome their objections....

3) Commuters
They might not give two hoots about the technicalities of their bike. As long as it reliably and cheaply gets them from to home to work and back, or maybe from home to the railway station and back, and clearly saves them money in the reasonably short term. They are not interested if they have to wait umpteen years to recoop the cost of purchase and running the bike. They need to see a quick return. Sort of like the argument used when people give up smoking: put all the money that you are saving away each week and in a year you can treat yourself to xxxxxxxxx......

4) Hobbyists, engineers and tecchies
No offence meant if I put all these groups together. They are people who understand the electrical stuff of e-bikes, can build an ordinary bike up into a functioning e-bike, and then want to develop / improve / tweak the bike in a constant quest to get better efficiency and comfort for minimal outlay.

5) Campers and caravanners
Think active retired "empty nesters". Enough money to afford a significant camping unit of some kind, and enough time on their hands to get good use out of it. E-bikes would not be particularly expensive (in the overall scheme of their outlay on their motorhome or caravan and big tow car). And would enable them to get more enjoyment from their chosen hobby/lifestyle. And they may be at the age where they would appreciate the assistance of a powered cycle, whereas they might not bother with the effort of riding a normal pushbike.


How can the trade as a whole, and individual manufacturers and dealers, tap into each of those groups? Are there other groups that I have not spotted?

I would think that there is work being done to attract some of those groups, and some of those groups like the DIY enthusiasts will, by definition, attract themselves to parts suppliers and like minded enthusiasts. But what about groups like commuters and campers and the returning to cycling?

Just my two pennyworth......

 

[Blew it]

Your views are worth a darnsight more than two pence! In fact, I think you have encompassed the world of electric bikes brilliantly. Good post!.

 

[12xu22]

Superb post Salad Dodger ... of the categories you mention, I reckon number 1) should be the main target for manufacturers. There must be millions who fall into this demographic and, guess what, they've probably got a bob or two, even in these tough old times.

 

[Mark Loveridge]

Fantastic posts here all. This is a great platform for distributors to learn where there target audience is and help to grow the whole industry for all. So I, and I am sure my competitors, are very grateful for your input and we hope to bring budding new e-bike riders to the industry!

 

[Mark Loveridge]

Mark...how many e-bikes do you think are sold annually in the UK? Do you think sales are rising or have they reached a plateau?
On a daily basis I have some advertising sales guy from a lifestyle magazine who clearly thinks that e-bike sellers are making a fortune in a massive market and does not believe me when I give him my estimate of the market size. Our rally business has many titles we can advertise within at relatively low cost but there does not seem to be similar titles that would be obvious editorial and advert marketing possibilities for e-bikes...at the other extreme are very niche titles such as A to B,The electric bike magazine etc...but if you walked into Smiths to pick up a magazine with a view to buy an e-bike to my knowledge there is not one magazine specific to the industry.
Similarly,the recent cycle show at the NEC was a good show for bikes and the small e-bike industry did a good job of demonstrating electric bikes but were those who had test rides only sport cyclists who just took the opportunity to try an e-bike rather than genuine interested e-bike customers,there are exceptions of course...I think Kudos,Ultramotor,Freego etc,who had substantial stands at the show must question the high cost (£10k plus)before attending the 2012 show...again I enjoyed the show but is the market place big enough to justify the cost.
I spoke at length to one of the other e-bike importers who suggested to me that his target annual number was 5000 units....I feel my own target of 2000 Kudos cycles per annum is more realistic.
I would be very happy to find a cost efficient way of making the e-bike business bigger but to date have not an idea how this could be achieved...sales of Kudos bikes are increasing but most of the growth seems to be from word of mouth,inexpensive test ride days and from this forum Pedelecs....I cannot see any quick fix way of reaching and persuading the general public other than getting them to put their bum on the saddle!
I tried to get a national electric bike show off the ground but despite 50 letters out to importers and retailers only got 3 casual indications of interest...perhaps BEBA would have more success in getting an e-bike show and/or magazine going,this would help considerably.
Dave
KudosCycles

Hi Dave,

I believe that annual sales are still increasing, but with new players joining the market the established ones are losing some market share and not growing at the same rate as the market overall. Its very hard to put a number to the market size but we expect this year to have been between 25k-30k.
I would say 5000 units is a rather high expectation, I would be surprised if they made half of that, as well as being very impressed.

I think the answer is inexpensive ‘bums on seats’ events. If you look at the Motorcycle Industry they have a scheme called ‘Get on’, this is a free opportunity for members of the public to try a motorcycle for the first time under expert tuition FOC. The e-bike industry doesn’t have the money to sustain something like this at the moment, but should be a long term goal.

In terms of a national show, its a great idea and I would love to see something put in place. However, BEBA is only a small team and funded by its members. We need more members on board before we have the resource to investigate such an event.
Thanks
Mark

 

[lemmy]

The bicycle market appears to be buoyant at the moment. I've just been shopping in Kingston in SW London and you cannot find space to tether the old two wheeler. There are now four bike shops in the town.

Any one of those riders could buy an electric bike if they wished. The reasons they choose not to must be many but mainly I'd think they would be the cost and the weight.

If someone asked me which of my bikes I'd keep, it'd have to be the Brompton. Far more versatile due to the light weight and with tiny running cost with no looming bills for dead battery. Given that a decent non-folder need cost no more than £300 that is even more of a no-brainer.

At the moment people are looking to save money, not increase their costs. Anyone reading here can see that ebikes are neither cheap to buy nor cheap to run and that there is little purpose for most people to a folding bike that weighs over 20kg.

I'm often asked about my Tasman - people always ask if they are expensive. When I tell them the cost you can see their eyes glaze over.

Many people around my way commute to London on their bikes. It's only a 45 minute run but they are a different breed from the ones who use cars, motor-cycles, bus train and tube. For them an ebike is simply an expensive push bike

I'm 67 years old but if things got really bad financially I'd not contemplate replacing my £500 battery, I'd use that money to buy a really nice pedal cycle safe in the knowledge that there will be nor more large bills forthcoming.

In a way, I'm not surprised at how small the UK ebike market is, but at how large it is. And I'm a fan!

 

[12xu22]

I just nipped up to the shops earlier and I didn't take the leccy bike, I took the Dahon. Main reason: the Dahon cost me £200, the leccy bike the best part of a grand, so given the slight chance that either bike may get half-inched while I'm in the shop, I plumped for the cheaper option. Plus the Dahon is just much easier to manouevre and the leccy bike attracts more attention. Not sure what to conclude from this, but anyway, that's my story...

 

[flecc]

Not sure what to conclude from this, but anyway, that's my story...

An interesting story nonetheless. To me it tells a story about convenience, one which I've remarked on about the current Dutch boom in e-biking. I've made the point that once they get past the novelty of e-bikes and start to get irritated by the inconvenience of battery charging, increased security need and high battery replacement costs, they are likely to go back to the always-ready convenience of normal bikes in their very flat land.

You might have been foretelling a future.

 

[mike killay]

Unless battery costs get very much cheaper, I cannot see a large market for e-bikes. The motors could be very cheap with mass production, for example, a 1200 watt motored vacuum cleaner sells complete for less than £50. A low quality bike is less than £100 in Tescos, controllers, and throttles are not expensive. At a guess, you could produce a complete e-bike of ordinary quality for £200 if you could guarantee to sell lots of them. But it is the battery that is the problem. Not only do they use expensive materials, but they do not last for long.

 

[funkylyn]

Have to agree that the price of batteries just has to be addressed for the market in e-Bikes to expand.
Also.....security......it certainly puts me off going into town here in spain on my bike as there is nowhere to leave it safely .
The threat of theft is enough for me to leave her at home, take the car and keep my bike for leisure riding.
Which, really, is an indulgence, and not a big enough reason to attract a whole new larger group of e-Bikers......especially in this current economic climate.
It seems to me that even with the best will in the world and the enthusiasm and dedication of the many good suppliers we have in the UK......this market is not growing anywhere near as fast as it should or could be.

Lynda

 

[12xu22]

to be honest,if I lived in Holland I wouldn't dream of having an e-bike as a grand would buy you an absolutely state of the art lightweight road bike (or folding bike) upon which you could whizz from dyke to dyke as the whim took you, probably doing 15mph the whole time with no need to trouble the national grid (or Dutch equivalent). However, unless your mystic powers predict a time when West Yorkshire is levelled (and I know this is something many people are in favour of ...) then I will probably stick with the battery bike ... yup, it's the hill climbing that is the e-bike's no.1 attribute as far as I'm concerned.

 

[12xu22]

one other thing, I have owned four ebikes in the last six months (don't ask) and it occurs to me that (despite the manufactuerers' claims) you cannot ride an e-bike "just like an ordinary bike" in non-battery mode. All the bikes I've ridden have suffered from drag to a greater or lesser degree, plus being twice as heavy as an ordinary bike does not make for the nippiest ride .... okay, you can pootle along quite nicely on the flat, but try tackling a hill sans battery and you'll pretty soon be reaching for the power switch. This probably needs addressing if the ebike is going to become a truly versatile mode of transportation. Ask yourself this question: if your battery died and you were 20 miles from home, could you happily pedal back in a couple of hours, or would you be ringing for the emergency services* (*wife)??

 

[steveindenmark]

12xu22. On the flat you can ride a Tonaro bike without power and they really shift. Obviously going uphill the weight of the motor and frame come into play.

Jannie and I often ride our bikes without power as it extends the distances we ride. Here is Jannie testing my Enduro out.

Tonaro Enduro-WITHOUT power - YouTube

With regards to opening the market for electric bikes I think the reliability has to be addresses and the attitude of people that they are only made for those who cannot manage an unpowered bike.

Steve

 

[flecc]

if your battery died and you were 20 miles from home, could you happily pedal back in a couple of hours, or would you be ringing for the emergency services* (*wife)??

Some crank motor e-bikes can sometimes be ok to ride without power as steveindenmark has observed. On the Panasonic powered Giant Lafree I would never turn on the power until I reached the first hill, which on one flat direction from home meant about three miles at 15 to 19 mph on pedal power only.

Almost all the hub motor bikes I've owned or tried have been pigs without motor power though, even on the flat, and hills with them unpowered were completely out of the question.

For me, hills are the only reason to have an e-bike, and I would never have bought one if I was in a wholly flat area. There the added weight and charging inconveniences would spoil the cycling pleasures.

 

[indalo]

you cannot ride an e-bike "just like an ordinary bike" in non-battery mode.

That's not quite true of all of them. I'll cite the Cytronex bikes for starters but your point is valid with so many ebikes still weighing in at 25-30 Kgs. I'm sure the weight of many ebikes, particularly in the affordable range, militates against a broader take-up of electric bikes......well, that and the cost to install a new battery after a couple of years of sporadic use and no regular charge/discharge regime.

Indalo

 

[david1949]

Before you look at sales of E Bikes you first have to look at cycling and it laws in the the UK. There should be a major rethink if 0ur government wants to get people interested in cycling and then things would change.
The new laws for cycles should come in line with continental Europe and that is cycles are separated from traffic where possible and cycles should have priority over car drivers, Only then will we see people taking up cycling more and then we will see a high rise in sales of e bikes and then the price of parts for them would fall we need a body for to fight for new laws for cyclists.

 

[mike killay]

Well, I suppose that is one thing the much despised EU could bring about. After all, if it was not for them we would still be stuck with 180 watts and 12 mph.
Imagine the absolute fury, the boiling rage, the near apoplexy of white van man etc. if UK bikes get continental style priority!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Ask yourself this question: if your battery died and you were 20 miles from home, could you happily pedal back in a couple of hours, or would you be ringing for the emergency services* (*wife)??

I don't know which bikes you've been riding, but I'd be happy to ride any of my bikes without power and often do. In fact, I've done more than 40 miles without power through choice on both my main bikes and enjoyed every minute of it. Sure they weigh a bit more, but that only affects speed on hills. You only have to change to a lower gear and go slow so it takes a bit longer.