Another blog...sorry! But some interesting details on people searching for e-bikes
Is enough being done to bring new consumers to e-bikes « My electric road
Is enough being done to bring new consumers to e-bikes « My electric road
Is enough being done to bring new consumers to e-bikes?
- Thread starter Mark Loveridge
- Start date
Mark...how many e-bikes do you think are sold annually in the UK? Do you think sales are rising or have they reached a plateau?
On a daily basis I have some advertising sales guy from a lifestyle magazine who clearly thinks that e-bike sellers are making a fortune in a massive market and does not believe me when I give him my estimate of the market size. Our rally business has many titles we can advertise within at relatively low cost but there does not seem to be similar titles that would be obvious editorial and advert marketing possibilities for e-bikes...at the other extreme are very niche titles such as A to B,The electric bike magazine etc...but if you walked into Smiths to pick up a magazine with a view to buy an e-bike to my knowledge there is not one magazine specific to the industry.
Similarly,the recent cycle show at the NEC was a good show for bikes and the small e-bike industry did a good job of demonstrating electric bikes but were those who had test rides only sport cyclists who just took the opportunity to try an e-bike rather than genuine interested e-bike customers,there are exceptions of course...I think Kudos,Ultramotor,Freego etc,who had substantial stands at the show must question the high cost (£10k plus)before attending the 2012 show...again I enjoyed the show but is the market place big enough to justify the cost.
I spoke at length to one of the other e-bike importers who suggested to me that his target annual number was 5000 units....I feel my own target of 2000 Kudos cycles per annum is more realistic.
I would be very happy to find a cost efficient way of making the e-bike business bigger but to date have not an idea how this could be achieved...sales of Kudos bikes are increasing but most of the growth seems to be from word of mouth,inexpensive test ride days and from this forum Pedelecs....I cannot see any quick fix way of reaching and persuading the general public other than getting them to put their bum on the saddle!
I tried to get a national electric bike show off the ground but despite 50 letters out to importers and retailers only got 3 casual indications of interest...perhaps BEBA would have more success in getting an e-bike show and/or magazine going,this would help considerably.
Dave
KudosCycles
On a daily basis I have some advertising sales guy from a lifestyle magazine who clearly thinks that e-bike sellers are making a fortune in a massive market and does not believe me when I give him my estimate of the market size. Our rally business has many titles we can advertise within at relatively low cost but there does not seem to be similar titles that would be obvious editorial and advert marketing possibilities for e-bikes...at the other extreme are very niche titles such as A to B,The electric bike magazine etc...but if you walked into Smiths to pick up a magazine with a view to buy an e-bike to my knowledge there is not one magazine specific to the industry.
Similarly,the recent cycle show at the NEC was a good show for bikes and the small e-bike industry did a good job of demonstrating electric bikes but were those who had test rides only sport cyclists who just took the opportunity to try an e-bike rather than genuine interested e-bike customers,there are exceptions of course...I think Kudos,Ultramotor,Freego etc,who had substantial stands at the show must question the high cost (£10k plus)before attending the 2012 show...again I enjoyed the show but is the market place big enough to justify the cost.
I spoke at length to one of the other e-bike importers who suggested to me that his target annual number was 5000 units....I feel my own target of 2000 Kudos cycles per annum is more realistic.
I would be very happy to find a cost efficient way of making the e-bike business bigger but to date have not an idea how this could be achieved...sales of Kudos bikes are increasing but most of the growth seems to be from word of mouth,inexpensive test ride days and from this forum Pedelecs....I cannot see any quick fix way of reaching and persuading the general public other than getting them to put their bum on the saddle!
I tried to get a national electric bike show off the ground but despite 50 letters out to importers and retailers only got 3 casual indications of interest...perhaps BEBA would have more success in getting an e-bike show and/or magazine going,this would help considerably.
Dave
KudosCycles
In such a small industry that can't afford aggressive marketing, I think the 'bums on seats' system is the best tool the industry has. Almost to a man, people have no awareness of E-Bikes. During a recent visit to my local boozer, 6 folk had a go on mine. They all loved it. One of them bought one a few days later, another is going to get one very shortly. None of them were previously aware that such contraptions existed.
I also think there is mileage in targeting niche interest groups. Preferably these groups would possess the basic indicators for a positive return. An interest in things mechanical, the ability to ride a bicycle and sufficient disposable income being the most important. I have long been involved with aeroplanes and motorcycles, and both these groups have great potential as E-Bike customers. I can think of a couple of likely opportunities as to how this might be achieved.
E-bikes do market themselves largely as being eco-friendly and cheap to run. Whilst I like to do my bit for the environment, it would not motivate me to spend £1000 plus. But if it seemed like 'fun', then that would get my juices flowing.
It must be very tough for all the providers out there, and not a little frustrating at times, but I think it was Roosevelt who said, "persistance, will, in time overcome everything". Well thats my five pennorth anyway.
I also think there is mileage in targeting niche interest groups. Preferably these groups would possess the basic indicators for a positive return. An interest in things mechanical, the ability to ride a bicycle and sufficient disposable income being the most important. I have long been involved with aeroplanes and motorcycles, and both these groups have great potential as E-Bike customers. I can think of a couple of likely opportunities as to how this might be achieved.
E-bikes do market themselves largely as being eco-friendly and cheap to run. Whilst I like to do my bit for the environment, it would not motivate me to spend £1000 plus. But if it seemed like 'fun', then that would get my juices flowing.
It must be very tough for all the providers out there, and not a little frustrating at times, but I think it was Roosevelt who said, "persistance, will, in time overcome everything". Well thats my five pennorth anyway.
Kudos has a built a strong group of retailers who look to the long term and are sufficiently future sighted that they realise the current low volume-high margin business is not sustainable in the long term.
Whilst building this group of dealers I came across the following comments from retailers who realised the value for money-quality aspects of the Kudos bikes but were openly hostile to our business model-
'I wouldn't sell any bike I don't get £300 minimum profit from'
'I won't buy stock bikes if you want your bikes in our shop then free issue them'
'I don't advertise or do try-a-bike days,thats your job'
'I want minimum £200 profit from replacement batteries'
'Kudos batteries could last 5 years-thats no good to us we want to sell new batteries every 2 years,thats our ongoing profit or we talk them into a new bike'
'I prefer to sell high end bikes the customer has deeper pockets'
'If you succeed we are all going to have to work harder'
'I sell one bike per week,thats enough'
'I don't understand the electrics on these bikes and why should I learn'
This is honestly the attitudes of some of the current bike retailers,quite frankly I am shocked by their lack of foresight,and we wonder why this business isn't growing!
Dave
KudosCycles
Whilst building this group of dealers I came across the following comments from retailers who realised the value for money-quality aspects of the Kudos bikes but were openly hostile to our business model-
'I wouldn't sell any bike I don't get £300 minimum profit from'
'I won't buy stock bikes if you want your bikes in our shop then free issue them'
'I don't advertise or do try-a-bike days,thats your job'
'I want minimum £200 profit from replacement batteries'
'Kudos batteries could last 5 years-thats no good to us we want to sell new batteries every 2 years,thats our ongoing profit or we talk them into a new bike'
'I prefer to sell high end bikes the customer has deeper pockets'
'If you succeed we are all going to have to work harder'
'I sell one bike per week,thats enough'
'I don't understand the electrics on these bikes and why should I learn'
This is honestly the attitudes of some of the current bike retailers,quite frankly I am shocked by their lack of foresight,and we wonder why this business isn't growing!
Dave
KudosCycles
Thompsons, selling through five stores, shifted around 7000 and more shopper style e-bikes a year in around the 2002/6 period, and were probably the biggest seller at that time. The secret was having bikes at around £300 or not much more when that was within the impulse purchasing range of many people. In fact in one of those years they were intending to bring in up to 12000. The bikes were mostly slowish with single speed low gearing and not for serious cycling, as Thompson senior once said, "My customers won't pedal".
These days they are online as well with several websites, the first link below giving a flavour of their store and online presence with e-bikes in the side menu, the other more online biased with the bike range shown. I don't suppose they sell anywhere near as many these days, but those shop selling methods do reach a wider public:
Thompsons link one
Thompsons link two
.
These days they are online as well with several websites, the first link below giving a flavour of their store and online presence with e-bikes in the side menu, the other more online biased with the bike range shown. I don't suppose they sell anywhere near as many these days, but those shop selling methods do reach a wider public:
Thompsons link one
Thompsons link two
.
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flecc,
very interesting....I think the market has moved away from that style of bike but it was obviously right for the time....Kudos is trying to keep it's prices below £1000 for that seems the threshold at which an impulse purchase is still possible....please don't misinterpret my postings,Kudos is ahead of target at this stage and we have some interesting new models due out spring 2012 and there are developments in China which will transform the crank drive market,my comments were only intended to answer Mark's question 'is enough being done to attract e-bike customers?'
I suspect more by luck than judgement we have,as newbies,bought the right bikes to the market at the right time and our dealers are very supportive. Interestingly we are also overcoming some of the silly chinese assembly issues which plague all the importers,the chinese are finally learning that their long term future is not solely based upon price,
Dave
KudosCycles
very interesting....I think the market has moved away from that style of bike but it was obviously right for the time....Kudos is trying to keep it's prices below £1000 for that seems the threshold at which an impulse purchase is still possible....please don't misinterpret my postings,Kudos is ahead of target at this stage and we have some interesting new models due out spring 2012 and there are developments in China which will transform the crank drive market,my comments were only intended to answer Mark's question 'is enough being done to attract e-bike customers?'
I suspect more by luck than judgement we have,as newbies,bought the right bikes to the market at the right time and our dealers are very supportive. Interestingly we are also overcoming some of the silly chinese assembly issues which plague all the importers,the chinese are finally learning that their long term future is not solely based upon price,
Dave
KudosCycles
Eaglerider. Good post!
Some brilliant and refreshingly new ideas for target markets.
Some four years ago, as a result of my own e-biking activities, I struck up an aquaintance with a couple of guys who were just entering into electric bike retailing in Swindon. Since those early days, I have seen them move to new premises, at great cost and personal time, closer to the town centre in an attempt to increase their footfall. This in itself was not enough, at every opportunity the demo bikes are loaded into the van and taken to fetes, local country shows and any other likely events. I don't think it would be humanly possible to put more energy into the success of their business, and of course the continuing job security of their employees.
The shop is very close to my home, and when ever the occasion arises, I pop in for a skive and a natter. Sometimes I get roped in for some unpaid work, ( I'm part of the 'big society'
) but always the subject of how to increase sales crops up. I will be passing a link to Eagleriders insightful posting to them.Kudoscycles.
Personally, I agree with your view on national shows. A nice little love-in for importers and a good old knees-up for the reps, but far too costly for those presenting the offerings at the point of sale. The Swindon shop I mentioned above approached the local borough council with a view to stageing an electric bike event at a remote country park some four miles from Swindon, at the top of a 16% climb up to the downs. Whilst I'm not privvy to the actual quote from the borough council to use the huge but sparsely occupied car park at this location, it was apparently disproportional to any financial benefit expected by the exibitors.
Localised E-bike awareness events have to be the way to go, but can only done with the co-operation of local borough councils. Here in Swindon, we have an enviably huge network of safe traffic free cycle routes, but there seems to be precious little encouragement from Swindon borough council to make them useable for those of all ages and abilities.
Regards
Bob
Every time people see my bike, they ask me these 3 identical questions:
1. How fast?
2. How far?
3. How heavy?
And for each answer, they are quite disapointed.
1. The first bike was supposed to go to 25km/h. But at this speed, the general comment of healthy people is to say they can do that with their own bike. I know that the law is the law, but this is the actual feedback.
2. For the distance, they often expect at least 50km. Which is quite uncommon for an ebile.
3. And for the weight, they just say it looks like a tank.
So I think ebike has inherently a lot of limitations, even though it is supposed to have a lot of potential. And to reach these customers I think we should find a way to tackle this.
For the speed, maybe we should allow user to derestrict if they want and for the weight, it seems that the Commuter booster (or friction drive) is a good idea.
In my case, I've now an ebike of 24 kg reaching 33km/h for 27km. The speed is not bad at all and the distance quite good. But it's way too big and heavy. When it's raining there is no way I can carry it in the bus or the tube.
Now I'm definitely planning to change it to a smaller one. Probably an electric brompton or something similar. (but not restricted to 25km/h)
So there is a need, or a niche, and maybe something can be done to tackle this.
1. How fast?
2. How far?
3. How heavy?
And for each answer, they are quite disapointed.
1. The first bike was supposed to go to 25km/h. But at this speed, the general comment of healthy people is to say they can do that with their own bike. I know that the law is the law, but this is the actual feedback.
2. For the distance, they often expect at least 50km. Which is quite uncommon for an ebile.
3. And for the weight, they just say it looks like a tank.
So I think ebike has inherently a lot of limitations, even though it is supposed to have a lot of potential. And to reach these customers I think we should find a way to tackle this.
For the speed, maybe we should allow user to derestrict if they want and for the weight, it seems that the Commuter booster (or friction drive) is a good idea.
In my case, I've now an ebike of 24 kg reaching 33km/h for 27km. The speed is not bad at all and the distance quite good. But it's way too big and heavy. When it's raining there is no way I can carry it in the bus or the tube.
Now I'm definitely planning to change it to a smaller one. Probably an electric brompton or something similar. (but not restricted to 25km/h)
So there is a need, or a niche, and maybe something can be done to tackle this.
The weight is an issue, agreed, a 28~30 mile range though should be achievable from a 37v / 10Ah for an average rider and to get over the reaction to speed I always say something along the lines that the motor will assist you up to 17~18mph....the reaction is very different vs 15mph! Then add in hill climbing ability and you can see people warm to the idea.
The biggest issue is the cost IME and the battery replacement...issues that are probably insurmountable to broad adoption....cheap bike with expensive replacement battery (why should I pay 40% of the cost of the bike every two years) or expensive bike and equally expensive battery with the initial price being the barrier.
The biggest issue is the cost IME and the battery replacement...issues that are probably insurmountable to broad adoption....cheap bike with expensive replacement battery (why should I pay 40% of the cost of the bike every two years) or expensive bike and equally expensive battery with the initial price being the barrier.
Every time people see my bike, they ask me these 3 identical questions:
1. How fast?
2. How far?
3. How heavy?
And for each answer, they are quite disapointed.
QUOTE]
Wrong bike then....I can assure you they would not be disapointed with my DaaHub!
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D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Why don't you do a proper full review of the Daahub?Wrong bike then....I can assure you they would not be disapointed with my DaaHub!
Personally, it makes me very suspicious about how it is when you've had it for so long and never really told us about it other than to drop a few superficial anecdotes.
How well do those brake switches work?
How many amps does it pull from the battery?
How much noise does it make when climbing:
How fast does it go and is it easy to adjust top speed?
Does that split pedal sensor stay in place or did you have to bodge it?
Were there any other problems?
I know that David hinted that things were not all that they should be, but why are you keeping it a secret?
Come on: Spill the beans!
Without fail, the first question I get asked is, "Does it recharge the battery as you pedal?"
yeaaaaah! got it very often too.
I just say:
"It can, but I won't, it defeat the purpose of an electric bike!"
That roughly fits in with my experience over several years too, plus in my hilly area, "will it climb the hills", and they mean the machine, not with their help.
The fact is that the largest potential market is that one, for people who expect an e-bike to perform like a light motorbike or moped but without the legal bureaucracy. It far outnumbers the market for true bicycles with assistance that many of us prefer, and if they were provided with that, they would probably drop the objections to e-bike weights.
I see an opportunity here with the impending EU legal changes which should also be adopted here. With more power permitted, e-bikes of 350 to 500 watts rating, i.e. 40 to 100% more climb power, would meet the needs of that very large group better. Instead of focusing so strongly on them being bicycles, they could be marketed separately from bikes through other outlets with the accent on them effectively being legal-restriction-free light mopeds. The permitted assist speed of up to 17 mph sounds better than a strict quote of the 15 mph law and would aid sales.
Where to sell them? I'd say take a cue from Thompsons and try DIY outlets, garden centres, tool and hardware outlets like Machine Mart etc, in all cases with machines at the budget end of the market.
This may not be very lucrative, but it would bring the concept of effortless e-biking to the wider public and provide an introduction to this seductive form of transport.
I'm not sure the issue is about enough being done to encourage new users of e-bikes. I suspect it relates to bikes overall.
As far as I can tell the countries which have the largest e-bike markets are those where using bicycles as practical transport is in the mainstream. I don't know, but I suspect that the majority of purchasers are already cyclists who choose an e-bike over a non assisted bike, rather than bringing in lots of new people to cycling. In fact they probably don't even think of themselves as cyclists particularly, they're just people using a bike like lots of their peers.
I imagine that in those countries mainstream bike shops have e-bikes in the show room from the same respected and known brands as their non-e-bikes. It becomes one of the options easily available (provided they can afford the £1,000 e-bike premium) for customers rather than a special interest activity requiring endless information searching across internet forums. And if there are any problems you pop down the road to your local dealer.
I think the e-bike market expansion will be limited until the general cycling market expands considerably. And that will require a significant improvement in cycling infrastructure so that people feel that using a bike is more practical for them than the alternatives.
Against the infrastructure and cycling culture (or lack of) barriers in the UK the e-bike sellers are probably doing a good job in difficult circumstances of marketing their products.
As far as I can tell the countries which have the largest e-bike markets are those where using bicycles as practical transport is in the mainstream. I don't know, but I suspect that the majority of purchasers are already cyclists who choose an e-bike over a non assisted bike, rather than bringing in lots of new people to cycling. In fact they probably don't even think of themselves as cyclists particularly, they're just people using a bike like lots of their peers.
I imagine that in those countries mainstream bike shops have e-bikes in the show room from the same respected and known brands as their non-e-bikes. It becomes one of the options easily available (provided they can afford the £1,000 e-bike premium) for customers rather than a special interest activity requiring endless information searching across internet forums. And if there are any problems you pop down the road to your local dealer.
I think the e-bike market expansion will be limited until the general cycling market expands considerably. And that will require a significant improvement in cycling infrastructure so that people feel that using a bike is more practical for them than the alternatives.
Against the infrastructure and cycling culture (or lack of) barriers in the UK the e-bike sellers are probably doing a good job in difficult circumstances of marketing their products.
My experience is that most enquirers are over 60 years old and although intrigued are put off by the price. In Belgium, a cyclist probably in his forties overtook me and stopped me, as so many of the Belgians can, he spoke perfect English. He had seen my Tonaro motor which is reminiscent of a moped and told me that he had only seen hub motors in Belgium. He appreciated that it was crank drive and told me that he had never heard of the principle. He was very keen and so I let him have a go (I held his beautiful Dutch roadster). I think I made a convert that day.
I regularly get asked about the bike, in Swansea, the first question is obviously hill climbing abilty. Perhaps 500 watt motors won't need gears, until then crank drivers or chain pullers are the way forward.
As to young people, I passed some 12 year olds pushing their BMX's up a hill and they all said they would like a bike like mine! I have seen one boy probably 12 -14 riding an electric hub model with his friends on BMX's.
I regularly get asked about the bike, in Swansea, the first question is obviously hill climbing abilty. Perhaps 500 watt motors won't need gears, until then crank drivers or chain pullers are the way forward.
As to young people, I passed some 12 year olds pushing their BMX's up a hill and they all said they would like a bike like mine! I have seen one boy probably 12 -14 riding an electric hub model with his friends on BMX's.
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