How to kill a potentially lucrative market

[Ultra Motor]

The reason for the thread is that the OP is disgusted at the cost of battery replacement for his E-Bike. The secondary point is the limiting effect this has on take up. You are into selling bikes, understood, how are you going to increase your sales and customer service....where does customer service come in if the customer is turned off a year or two years down the road because he's forced to pay for an overtly expensive replacement battery.

I am being deliberately argumentative because this issue affects all who buy a commercial E-Bike and I don't think, today, manufacturers really have the best interests of the customer at heart. To grow the market and your business then the cost of ownership has to be factored in and lowered accordingly....maybe it means the bike ASP needs to be higher or maybe a leased scheme for the battery is needed so replacement cost is spread out over many months...

Sorry for delayed response, was a very proud boyfriend yesterday as my Girlfriend qualified as a midwife so had to dash!

Its the same in any vehicle industry- there is a limited warranty, but the service comes in looking after the customer post warranty. In most markets you can then get 'unbranded' components, which I sure will happen with e-bikes?

Don't worry- its good to be challenged and kept on our toes Until numbers increase and we can negotiate further with supplier I don't think prices will be coming down. If you look at a Vectrix (Electric motorcycle), I used to work for them and their battery packs were in excess of £4000 for a NiMH....I agree with the leasing model and am doing a bit of research into it at the moment. I truly believe this is a good avenue to go.

 

[Ultra Motor]

I'm still not convinced, the ridiculously high price of some batteries is not sustainable. Over pricing themselves out of a sale.

Since the introduction of WEEE and batteries regulation, the supplier has to take back the batteries free of charge, or point the owner to one of 7 battery schemes on mainland UK.

Under the regulations all automotive and industrial batteries for power tools(that includes ebike batteries classed as industrial as they propel something) can no longer go to landfill.

I know some on here say the Li can't be recycled but speaking to a waste operative who wants to set up micro collection of batteries in NI, they claim there is inherent value in Li batteries.

The price of metal has rocketed in the last couple of years, so whilst raw materials rise, an incentive to the ebiker would be to offer cash back on the old batteries.

I also used to be involved in the waste sector (all of 4 months!) and know about WEEE, we as a supplier have to be registered and give reports as to what has been returned and recycled (by the ton). There is value in Nickel as a metal, but by the time you recycle it all profit is gone and we still have to pay to have them taken away. If this will change, I don't know?

 

[jbond]

If you look at a Vectrix (Electric motorcycle), I used to work for them and their battery packs were in excess of £4000 for a NiMH....I agree with the leasing model and am doing a bit of research into it at the moment. I truly believe this is a good avenue to go.

Last week I was a guest at an IMI discussion about the impact of electric scooters and motorcycles in the motor industry. One of the key discussions was around standardisation of batteries and leasing schemes. And one of the key walls preventing wider uptake was the Insurance and Finance industry who wouldn't cover or provide finance because they knew nothing about these strange new-fangled things.

If you were involved with Vectrix, you maybe know my journalist friend Paul Blezard who got me the invite. Between Paul, Cedric Lynch and myself we provided a passionate but probably extremely strange viewpoint to the suits who provide consultancy to the industry.

 

[CeeGee]

I see no reason why there are so many different types of battery case. What is needed is one standard case for 24v motors, and one for 36v that will fit any ebike manufactured for the UK from 2012. That will bring the cost per unit down, make life a lot simpler for owners of more than one make of bike, and open the battery market up to more battery manufacturers.

Colin

 

[flecc]

For those who still insist that e-bikers are being ripped of with battery prices, take a sobering look at these final prices before launch of some electric cars before the end of this year:

Nissan Leaf (golf size small car) £28,990, almost half that is the battery.

Cap Monitor, one of the companies that sets resale values has opted for 40% after 3 years, so nearly £6000 a year depreciation on a small family car. Opt to keep it instead and risk needing a replacement battery at circa £14,000.

Citroen C-Zero and Peugeot iOn are modified Mitsubishi i-Miev cars, tiny barely four seaters that they will only lease. £498 per month for 4 years when it's handed back in, so almost £24,000 with no recovery value afterwards, again circa £6,000 a year, but for a micro car this time. Worse still, 90 miles range if treated very gently, halved if the performance is fully used.

e-car battery life is claimed to be 8 to 10 years and 125,000 to 150,000 miles. Now then, stop laughing at the back there.

Suddenly e-biking doesn't seem to be so bad.
.

 

[eddieo]

I am looking for a smaller replacement for our focus..was thinking of a fiesta but fuel consumption not much better then petrol focus

So tried a Fiat 500 last week (the new tax and congestion charge exempt 80 mile per gallon multi air or twin air not available till early 2011) But it is a bit small, have just seen the Skoda Fabia 3 cylinder diesel, same kinda spec but 4 doors and a bit more practical I would think...

any thoughts? or other other recommendations appreciated

you get a £5000 rebate from government on an electric car...nothing for a bike, damn their stupidity!

 

[NRG]

Sorry for delayed response, was a very proud boyfriend yesterday as my Girlfriend qualified as a midwife so had to dash!

Its the same in any vehicle industry- there is a limited warranty, but the service comes in looking after the customer post warranty. In most markets you can then get 'unbranded' components, which I sure will happen with e-bikes?

Don't worry- its good to be challenged and kept on our toes Until numbers increase and we can negotiate further with supplier I don't think prices will be coming down. If you look at a Vectrix (Electric motorcycle), I used to work for them and their battery packs were in excess of £4000 for a NiMH....I agree with the leasing model and am doing a bit of research into it at the moment. I truly believe this is a good avenue to go.

Mark, thanks for taking my posts in a positive manner. Leasing I think could work and I look forward to seeing what you come up with....a trade in scheme may also would work but is a touch more difficult to cost as it easts into your margin and may only really work if you where trying to get a customer to switch from a competing product.....which is probably not the case here.

 

[flecc]

have just seen the Skoda Fabia 3 cylinder diesel, same kinda spec but 4 doors and a bit more practical I would think...

Had a Skoda Fabia 1.2 three cylinder petrol for five and a half years, one of the best cars I've ever owned and I've had some good stuff. Not a single fault in that time and everything original at time of sale down to the light bulbs. It fetched maximum trade in price and could have got more privately if I could have been bothered. Economy was pretty good if I didn't clobber it.

you get a £5000 rebate from government on an electric car...nothing for a bike, damn their stupidity!

Pro rata you'd get about £275 off your Wisper, but which would you rather pay, £1600 and forego the £275, or £28,990 and get £5000 off.
.

 

[RoadieRoger]

Batteries

Some interesting discussions on batteries in the posts above and as a newcomer to E biking, perhaps I could add a few points of my own . I have come to E bikes purely for pleasure riding and the price of batteries did not feature . It appears that older people purchase them for exercise and to take a lot of the effort out of cycling at their time of life . The younger ones use them for work as well as enjoying cycling ,as of course we all do . The Commuter , particularly in London will be saving on transport fares and after a few years will have saved more than enough to afford a new battery, even the high Ah ones costing a lot . The leisure rider will obviously put the battery cost down to the pleasure derived and perhaps the bonus of being fitter and maybe living longer .
After reading the posts on the forum , buying a machine say costing around £6-700 with a 8-10Ah battery would be the best move for the older person, as the distances to be covered would not be too great , the purchase price is reasonable and the cost of a replacement battery , not too high . I know this now, but when I purchased my Batribike Quartz Folder two months ago I wasn`t aware of this .
My son has just got back after a year working near Shanghai and said they all ride them on the twistgrip alone and use them as we ride motor scooters here . I could do the same but I don`t, as I didn`t buy it for that reason .Most of the people that stop and ask me about the machine are older and keen to buy one . The kids are very aware too . Perhaps the Marketing people ought to try other locations to promote E bikes not just Showgrounds where you have to pay to get in or be interested in Camping ,Caravanning, Boating etc.
Standardisation of batteries regarding capacities , size and connections is essential .I have given some thought lately to the time when my battery expires , will I manage to get an exact replacement ? If not I suppose the fact that it is rather low geared will be a bonus, as I will be able to pedal it everywhere without power . As it happens it is only a few kilos heavier than my steel constructed 31year old German Folder and at least the battery bike has suspension and 7 gears instead of 3 !
Hope the foregoing is of interest .

 

[flecc]

Interesting thoughts Roger, and coinciding with much that we've discussed and sometimes agreed in the past.

Battery standardisation is a hoary old chestnut that crops up repeatedly, but we are far away from it becoming reality for good reasons:

1) The battery technology is a long way from settled, some types bulkier for a given capacity.

2) The battery position cannot be agreed, since different bike types have differing needs, folders, sports, ladies step-through, motor position and weight distribution etc.

3) The battery capacity cannot be agreed for the reasons in (2) above; for the widely differing range requirements of customers; because actual power ratings and therefore consumptions vary widely. Just one company is about to have for their bike make the range 8 Ah, 10 Ah, 12 Ah, 18 Ah, supplemented from another source by a 16 Ah which has been 15 Ah previously.

4) Whether the battery should have an integral content meter varies by bike type, and bike price level.

5) Whether any such integral meter should have additional readout abilities and how many those should be varies according to bike price range.
.

 

[NRG]

E-bikes are a low cost transport model, replacement batteries skew that and are expensive for that model. As for a 'rip off' ....yes maybe in some cases the prices charged are...at best they are over priced in the majority. E-cars are not truly viable yet, however, at least they come with warranty and milage periods consummate to their likely use, E-bikes currently do not.

 

[flecc]

at least they come with warranty and milage periods consummate to their likely use

As Basil Fawlty might have said, "Don't mention the warranty, NRG did, but I think he got away with it".

I'm not so trusting on this, the heavier construction of the batteries does indicate a longer life, but the indications are predicated on the most favourable usage and range forecasts. The cars I mentioned above won't achieve the claimed 80 to 100 mile ranges since that depends on extremely gentle driving. In practical use with traffic imperatives and user needs, manufacturers admit the ranges can halve. That in turn means using the charge extremes more, and that results in shorter lives. This will be a particularly difficult issue for some decades yet due to having to mix, compete with, and be hassled by the superior performance i.c. cars.
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[NRG]

Not that I'm endorsing e-cars but look up Robert Llewellyn's Gearless, 80 miles is about right, little gentle driving in evidence. The technology is not 'there' yet, agreed, however the warranty offered on the vehicles you list earlier is.

 

[flecc]

look up Robert Llewellyn's Gearless, 80 miles is about right, little gentle driving in evidence.

Strange that Peugeot Citroen are quoting the range reduction I mentioned, I know they've modded the i-Miev but don't know if that's anyting to do with it.

Still I hope they do live up to the claims, the i-Miev has been put back three years running due to battery problems Mitsubishi admitted each time, so hopefully all's well now. Better than launching anyway and making the customers suffer.
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[jbond]

For those who still insist that e-bikers are being ripped of with battery prices, take a sobering look at these final prices before launch of some electric cars before the end of this year:.

Another datapoint. The biggest selling all-electric 4 wheeler at the moment is the G-Wizz. It sneaks though the UK licensing laws by being a quad rather than a car. And the latest LiOn version is £10k. £10k for a quad? You've got to be kidding!

 

[flecc]

Another datapoint. The biggest selling all-electric 4 wheeler at the moment is the G-Wizz. It sneaks though the UK licensing laws by being a quad rather than a car. And the latest LiOn version is £10k. £10k for a quad? You've got to be kidding!

And it got to be the biggest seller by being a realistic £7000 and with cheap lead acid battery replacements, so how the Li-ion one will be received is debatable.

I've got some doubts about your quad law comment, since all these electric cars including the G-Wiz do have to be registered, insured, have number plates and tax discs, and have licenced drivers, though the road fund tax disc is free, no matter how big or small the car.
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[jbond]

I've got some doubts about your quad law comment, since all these electric cars including the G-Wiz do have to be registered, insured, have number plates and tax discs, and have licenced drivers, though the road fund tax disc is free, no matter how big or small the car.
.

Quads, like motorcycles, have to be registered, taxed (may be free), have plates, have MOTs, insurance, etc etc etc. but just like the old Reliant Robin, the restrictions, requirements and testing are much less onerous than for cars. In particular, the safety testing and requirements are much much easier.

 

[Ultra Motor]

Last week I was a guest at an IMI discussion about the impact of electric scooters and motorcycles in the motor industry. One of the key discussions was around standardisation of batteries and leasing schemes. And one of the key walls preventing wider uptake was the Insurance and Finance industry who wouldn't cover or provide finance because they knew nothing about these strange new-fangled things.

If you were involved with Vectrix, you maybe know my journalist friend Paul Blezard who got me the invite. Between Paul, Cedric Lynch and myself we provided a passionate but probably extremely strange viewpoint to the suits who provide consultancy to the industry.

I do know Paul, quite well- he was a great ambassador for us at Vectrix and still is with the e-bikes now!

Whilst at Vectrix I setup a finance scheme with Black Horse, but when the Group Director I was dealing with left they decided to bin it and we weren't able to get it going again. A lot of the uncertainty was around resale costs and battery life.It took long enough to get the insurance companies on board! Although Vectrix have just launched their first Li-ion scooter..!

 

[Ultra Motor]

I am looking for a smaller replacement for our focus..was thinking of a fiesta but fuel consumption not much better then petrol focus

So tried a Fiat 500 last week (the new tax and congestion charge exempt 80 mile per gallon multi air or twin air not available till early 2011) But it is a bit small, have just seen the Skoda Fabia 3 cylinder diesel, same kinda spec but 4 doors and a bit more practical I would think...

any thoughts? or other other recommendations appreciated

you get a £5000 rebate from government on an electric car...nothing for a bike, damn their stupidity!

Eddie- Have a look at the Skoda Yeti, a good size and comes with a 1.2 petrol turbo. A friend of mine has had one for 6 months now and can't stop raving about it!

 

[Ultra Motor]

I am looking for a smaller replacement for our focus..was thinking of a fiesta but fuel consumption not much better then petrol focus

So tried a Fiat 500 last week (the new tax and congestion charge exempt 80 mile per gallon multi air or twin air not available till early 2011) But it is a bit small, have just seen the Skoda Fabia 3 cylinder diesel, same kinda spec but 4 doors and a bit more practical I would think...

any thoughts? or other other recommendations appreciated

you get a £5000 rebate from government on an electric car...nothing for a bike, damn their stupidity!

BTW- I am also (continually) battling to get support for electric 2-wheelers. every 'rebate' is car focussed and they claim that an electric car 'reduces congestion' - I'm still waiting to find out how...!