How to kill a potentially lucrative market

[NRG]

D NiMh cells available from here:

NiMH D Rechargeable Batteries Up To 10000mAh

10Ah battery for £300....

 

[tillson]

Batteries are expensive to buy. Although Li-ion has been around for a long time there are also complex BMS systems to install and manage. Then if you also look at the Ultra Motor range of batteries they come packaged in a high quality case, which costs a lot to design, create moulds and ultimately produce.

I'm in no doubt that the wholesale cost of batteries is probably quite high and I suspect that the retailers aren't making massive margins on them.

I'm not convinced regarding the BMS and case though. The case is a box and the BMS is an assortment of cheap components. I know that there are design and tooling costs to factor in, but mankind has been making boxes for a while now and BMS have been developed across a range of applications.

I am disgusted with myself for saying that I will end up buying one of the new 18Ah batteries for my Pro Connect in the full knowledge that I am being exploited. The thing is, I have no choice, the expensive bike is useless without the battery and so I have to buy one. I know that, the manufacturer knows that and so does the retailer. Why should they sell their batteries at a reasonable price with a fair margin of profit and with a realistic claim of life expectancy?

It's bad enough parting with the cash in full knowledge that I am being taken for a bit of a mug, but please spare me the ******* about boxes, components and magic fairy dust. I'll pay up. Just leave it at that.

 

[piotrmacheta]

I have made a NiMH pack out of 10Ah Ansmann D cells and they don't like suppyling the 10 to 15 amp outputs very much but my 4.5Ah Ansmann Racing sub C cells are superb.
So..... yes NiMH are great but depends on the quality of the cells and yes the best ones are more expensive.

 

[Ultra Motor]

I'm in no doubt that the wholesale cost of batteries is probably quite high and I suspect that the retailers aren't making massive margins on them.

I'm not convinced regarding the BMS and case though. The case is a box and the BMS is an assortment of cheap components. I know that there are design and tooling costs to factor in, but mankind has been making boxes for a while now and BMS have been developed across a range of applications.

I am disgusted with myself for saying that I will end up buying one of the new 18Ah batteries for my Pro Connect in the full knowledge that I am being exploited. The thing is, I have no choice, the expensive bike is useless without the battery and so I have to buy one. I know that, the manufacturer knows that and so does the retailer. Why should they sell their batteries at a reasonable price with a fair margin of profit and with a realistic claim of life expectancy?

It's bad enough parting with the cash in full knowledge that I am being taken for a bit of a mug, but please spare me the ******* about boxes, components and magic fairy dust. I'll pay up. Just leave it at that.

Hi Tilson

I appreciate your comments, but I think you'd be shocked at the development and production costs. All our new style batteries (starting with the Hybrid 24) will now have CAN bus functionality so you can run analysis on the battery : no. of times charged etc and again this costs money to develop and produce.

I appreciate your comments, being a consumer of 'tech' goods myself too I begrudge paying over the odds for spares and accessories. But we certainly don't make killer margins on them like Apple and other big tech manufacturers!

Thanks
Mark

 

[Ultra Motor]

Hear, Hear, getting rid of high quality D cell NiMh production in favour of lithium was a huge mistake.

They were a bit heavier, but they worked, were reliable, were cheaper when in full production and they lasted.
.

The problem is consumers drive you towards the latest tech, as its what they perceive they 'want'. Weight being one of the key issues for people, everyone considering an e-bike picks it up!

But I understand your point.

 

[NRG]

Hi Tilson

I appreciate your comments, but I think you'd be shocked at the development and production costs. All our new style batteries (starting with the Hybrid 24) will now have CAN bus functionality so you can run analysis on the battery : no. of times charged etc and again this costs money to develop and produce.

I appreciate your comments, being a consumer of 'tech' goods myself too I begrudge paying over the odds for spares and accessories. But we certainly don't make killer margins on them like Apple and other big tech manufacturers!

Thanks
Mark

This is a leading question: Why do we need that functionality, is it for your benefit or the consumers?

 

[Ultra Motor]

This is a leading question: Why do we need that functionality, is it for your benefit or the consumers?

Its for the dealer and customer more than anything. When you buy a second hand bike or trade in with a car or scooter you can look at the mileage, on a bike you can't. This functionality will ensure the dealer can value correctly and the would be purchaser knows what they are buying.

Hope that makes sense? For us, of course it helps with warranty claims as we appreciate this is an expensive part of the bike.

 

[NRG]

I'm in no doubt that the wholesale cost of batteries is probably quite high and I suspect that the retailers aren't making massive margins on them.

I'm not convinced regarding the BMS and case though. The case is a box and the BMS is an assortment of cheap components. I know that there are design and tooling costs to factor in, but mankind has been making boxes for a while now and BMS have been developed across a range of applications.

I am disgusted with myself for saying that I will end up buying one of the new 18Ah batteries for my Pro Connect in the full knowledge that I am being exploited. The thing is, I have no choice, the expensive bike is useless without the battery and so I have to buy one. I know that, the manufacturer knows that and so does the retailer. Why should they sell their batteries at a reasonable price with a fair margin of profit and with a realistic claim of life expectancy?

It's bad enough parting with the cash in full knowledge that I am being taken for a bit of a mug, but please spare me the ******* about boxes, components and magic fairy dust. I'll pay up. Just leave it at that.

I'm not convinced either Tillson, I wonder why companies do not offer a re-cell service to save on the expensive cost of case and BMS

 

[NRG]

Its for the dealer and customer more than anything. When you buy a second hand bike or trade in with a car or scooter you can look at the mileage, on a bike you can't. This functionality will ensure the dealer can value correctly and the would be purchaser knows what they are buying.

Hope that makes sense? For us, of course it helps with warranty claims as we appreciate this is an expensive part of the bike.

OK, that's the real reason, its for your benefit. E-Bikes are pretty low tech low cost items compared to cars and consumer gadget devices etc. The extra complexity you are engineering in is not driven by customer demand, all he really wants is value and low cost of ownership.

 

[Ultra Motor]

I'm not convinced either Tillson, I wonder why companies do not offer a re-cell service to save on the expensive cost of case and BMS

NRG- its too expensive and goes away from our core business. In the 'Motor Vehicle' world this is a service that a dealer would offer, rather than a manufacturer. For example they would re-build your engine. Maybe this is a business opportunity for you?

We also have to stress, that high battery prices aren't favoured by us either as it will obviously restrict uptake (the whole reason for this thread). So anything that can be done to reduce this is welcomed. Our targets are around selling bikes, not batteries...

 

[Ultra Motor]

OK, that's the real reason, its for your benefit. E-Bikes are pretty low tech low cost items compared to cars and consumer gadget devices etc. The extra complexity you are engineering in is not driven by customer demand, all he really wants is value and low cost of ownership.

Its a dual benefit. If that were the case then we may as well stop any innovation and leave things as they are. Our consumer base is obviously different to the customers you perceive we have.

Our customers strive to have something different that other manufacturers don't offer in terms of design and technology. So we are continually developing new technology which you will see rolled out over the next 12- 18 months.

I don't want to steer the thread away from the initial question. If you look into our iDEP technology you'll see that we are actually working on reducing battery costs, to be pioneered by our Excel model.

 

[NRG]

The reason for the thread is that the OP is disgusted at the cost of battery replacement for his E-Bike. The secondary point is the limiting effect this has on take up. You are into selling bikes, understood, how are you going to increase your sales and customer service....where does customer service come in if the customer is turned off a year or two years down the road because he's forced to pay for an overtly expensive replacement battery.

I am being deliberately argumentative because this issue affects all who buy a commercial E-Bike and I don't think, today, manufacturers really have the best interests of the customer at heart. To grow the market and your business then the cost of ownership has to be factored in and lowered accordingly....maybe it means the bike ASP needs to be higher or maybe a leased scheme for the battery is needed so replacement cost is spread out over many months...

 

[Scimitar]

I have made a NiMH pack out of 10Ah Ansmann D cells and they don't like suppyling the 10 to 15 amp outputs very much but my 4.5Ah Ansmann Racing sub C cells are superb.
So..... yes NiMH are great but depends on the quality of the cells and yes the best ones are more expensive.

I was giving serious thought to making a NiMH pack from batteries supplied by component-shop Home
These are less than 6quid each, in quantity...
VTE10000D
And the low self-discharge option is attractive, but it's max discharge isn't...
IN8000D ... though I suspect it's a typo and should be 16,000mA

 

[Synthman]

Do you want a Piaggio ET4 or an electric bicycle?

Make it a GTS 125 i.e. Super in black!

 

[Northern Irelander]

Hear, Hear, getting rid of high quality D cell NiMh production in favour of lithium was a huge mistake.

They were a bit heavier, but they worked, were reliable, were cheaper when in full production and they lasted.
.

I have a LiPol and NiMH battery, some cells are leaking in the NiMH, but I will be replacing both batteries (when the time comes) with NiMH cells. Li batteries are not worth the money.

 

[Northern Irelander]

Gents:

Just thought I'd add a manufacturer/distributors perspective.

Batteries are expensive to buy. Although Li-ion has been around for a long time there are also complex BMS systems to install and manage. Then if you also look at the Ultra Motor range of batteries they come packaged in a high quality case, which costs a lot to design, create moulds and ultimately produce.

The new Fast4ward bikes use a slightly lower cost style of case (but still use Panasonic cells) and as such batteries will start around £300, maybe just below.

I think the key is, with anything, pick the quality level you want and the price will follow. Both ours are Sanyo or Panasonic cells, in quality cases and as such production costs are high. I'll also echo Flecc's point that we could probably make a lot more money in a different industry.

I don't think profit is a dirty word that should be ignored or avoided. Profit is crucial to pay staff, build the economy, please stakeholders and of course ensure we are here to keep bringing new innovative products but also support those that we have already put into the market. As long as you receive good value for money then I believe there's nothing wrong with profit.

I hope this gives you a better understanding. I do appreciate batteries aren't cheap and it is a big consideration when purchasing a bike- but quality costs.

I'm still not convinced, the ridiculously high price of some batteries is not sustainable. Over pricing themselves out of a sale.

Since the introduction of WEEE and batteries regulation, the supplier has to take back the batteries free of charge, or point the owner to one of 7 battery schemes on mainland UK.

Under the regulations all automotive and industrial batteries for power tools(that includes ebike batteries classed as industrial as they propel something) can no longer go to landfill.

I know some on here say the Li can't be recycled but speaking to a waste operative who wants to set up micro collection of batteries in NI, they claim there is inherent value in Li batteries.

The price of metal has rocketed in the last couple of years, so whilst raw materials rise, an incentive to the ebiker would be to offer cash back on the old batteries.

 

[NRG]

I've labored my view on this but none of the bike suppliers offer a trade in scheme for batteries despite the apparent high cost of case and BMS. The WEEE directive is interesting as I've first hand experience of having to implement this for computer parts, it would be informative to understand where bike suppliers stand on this.

 

[flecc]

The trouble with current NiMh D cellls is the quality/cost/performance balance. When they were in large scale production before lithium took over, good quality very high discharge rating NiMh D cells were available at reasonable prices.

That is no longer the case, acceptable prices mean cells that simply don't perform on the highest powered legal e-bikes, and I'm saying that from experience of failures. Another factor is consistency, it's important that series NiMh cells match well, but batches these days can be very inconsistent, making it necessary to overbuy to get a set that match reasonably well, increasing the price, which at circa £10 per cell is unwelcome.

Matching necessity and it's production costs and wastage was a major factor in manufacturers wanting out of NiMh and into lithium rapidly.
.

 

[fatts]

I am glad to say I dont have the problem at the moment runnning old converted rickshaw and tricycle and as I run on lead acid.But the day will come when I will want a new lithium one for my Powabyke X24.
Can I have a free one Frank?

 

[gerryscott]

cash back on old batteries

i'm not sure if they still offer this, but wisper would offer £50 off new battery when trading in old.