How to kill a potentially lucrative market

[flecc]

Quads, like motorcycles, have to be registered, taxed (may be free), have plates, have MOTs, insurance, etc etc etc. but just like the old Reliant Robin, the restrictions, requirements and testing are much less onerous than for cars. In particular, the safety testing and requirements are much much easier.

Does the G-Wiz have a reversing function? If so, it cannot take advantage of the same motor-cycle type law as the Reliant Robin, it has to be registered as a car.
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[Ultra Motor]

Does the G-Wiz have a reversing function? If so, it cannot take advantage of the same motor-cycle type law as the Reliant Robin, it has to be registered as a car.
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I think it can. But so can a Honda Goldwing, the Vectrix had reverse to? How does that work, as they are classed as motorbikes?

 

[Scimitar]

Does the G-Wiz have a reversing function? If so, it cannot take advantage of the same motor-cycle type law as the Reliant Robin, it has to be registered as a car.
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It goes by weight more than anything else - the reverse gear thing fell by the wayside years ago. Not suprising, given the quality of construction

 

[flecc]

I answer to the above comments, it's the driving licence that's the difference, a motorcycle one is ok when no reverse exists on a 3-wheel like the Robin and I think that also applies to the Quad bikes referred to above. The GullWing is irrelevant to that since it's a motorcycle anyway, like the Vectrix.

I doubt the weight comes into it, the G-Wiz in it's normal lead-acid battery guise is very heavy and not a motorcycle of course.
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[Scimitar]

Who can drive a 3-wheeler... note the reverse gear law was dumped in 1963, even further back than I thought it was.
UK Laws

 

[indalo]

I've been away for a few days and just caught up with the various contributions to this thread since I last saw it.

It's fair to say, I think, for the most part that most people have responded genuinely & fairly as they see things. My original premise that replacement battery prices will ensure that the ebike community will not grow, (it may shrink!) still stands true in my opinion.

Clearly, regardless of what some have to say, there are others who believe as I do that we are being ripped off. It is a captive market once one takes ownership of an electric bike and the market, being small and showing only little year on year growth, is being exploited by many in the business determined to make hay while the sun shines.

There are strategies which could be deployed so that, for example, "old hat" 7 or 8Ah batteries which would suffice for a great many of us could be made available close to cost with nobody in the marketing chain taking a profit. For those who demand the latest, shiniest, one squillion miles per charge offering, they can pay the grossly inflated mark-up to cover the alleged R&D costs. The rest of us might buy a bike with that technology in 5 years time.

Now, I don't get my rocks off reading technical papers on electronics but don't anyone be fooled into believing that battery manufacturers' R&D costs are like NASA's or the major drug companies for they are not. Li-ion technology is not in its infancy; indeed, it is probably nearly exhausted and other forms of portable energy production, harvesting and retention are quite well advanced. The companies who lead the way in the field are not those who supply your car or bike batteries but the massive, global conglomerates who provide non-nuclear electricity and pick up lots of government grants in one form or another worldwide.

I mentioned Toyota previously and Flecc kindly explained that their hybrid Prius doesn't use Li-ion technology. What Flecc omitted to mention is that industry analysts believe that Toyota made a sizeable loss on every Prius made in the first 5 years of production. Toyota were determined to place themselves as the leading player worldwide producing "green" automobiles and had to win over America to do that. They succeeded without going bust and both Toyota and every other player in the hybrid car or electric car market continue to employ the strategy of pricing their vehicles way above what might be perceived as their class competitors. Their batteries last a long time and don't cost a fortune, (relatively) to replace. I'm not aware of a bike maker or seller having adopted that model.

When I was a kid, batteries, whether for a torch or for a car, looked pretty much like the batteries we use for those purposes today. Ok, they've improved a bit but they're still not sophisticated beyond our comprehension so I'd like to hear exactly how much cash has gone into R&D over the last 50 years. Not very much in my view! Equally, portable computer batteries have improved leaps and bounds over the last 10 years while the cost has fallen in real terms.

When the people involved in this tiny industry stop taking such large profits from batteries and accept that batteries are little different from brake blocks, tyres or cables, (I can ride my bike without a battery but wouldn't without tyres or brakes!) then perhaps the market in ebikes will grow, the number of batteries required will increase, more people will get into cycling and (dreams...!) government will move on creating more cycling lanes, traffic-free zones and altering the Highway Code giving precedence & right of way to cyclists everywhere.

It's probably way past time to move on from this thread and this is my last word on it. Don't believe any who suggest the suppliers are really doing us a big favour by selling batteries as cheaply as they do. Either they have a vested interest or they are simply misinformed as to production costs. God forbid that you buy an £8000 economy car only to find that new tyres cost £3000 each from Michelin, the only supplier, and you'll have to replace them every two years!

 

[flecc]

Who can drive a 3-wheeler... note the reverse gear law was dumped in 1963, even further back than I thought it was.
UK Laws

Thanks for bringing me up to date Dave, I think there are some owners not aware yet if my area is anything to go by!
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[flecc]

Li-ion technology is not in its infancy; indeed, it is probably nearly exhausted

Hardly, as I explained above, recent further research has been necessary to make batteries that can deliver adequately for our purposes. Furthermore, LiFePO4 status is still at a relatively primitive stage since the full life potential can only be realised by making them much larger then theoretically necessary. With all lithium types, there is much potential still being explored in compound cathodes with new mixes being continuously tested by a number of companies currently and none of those I know of is in any way connected to a global generator or owner of such. Until the cathode potential is fully realised, production anodes won't advance and all are still using the most primitive, carbon, though it's already known that there is plenty of potential for anode improvement.

I mentioned Toyota previously and Flecc kindly explained that their hybrid Prius doesn't use Li-ion technology. What Flecc omitted to mention is that industry analysts believe that Toyota made a sizeable loss on every Prius made in the first 5 years of production. Toyota were determined to place themselves as the leading player worldwide producing "green" automobiles and had to win over America to do that. They succeeded without going bust and both Toyota and every other player in the hybrid car or electric car market continue to employ the strategy of pricing their vehicles way above what might be perceived as their class competitors.

I was well aware of this since I've long been a critic of the Prius. The battery technology in them is indeed cheap, since as I observed, it's old, well established and has no research costs to amortise. Additionally my e-car mention in this thread was to point out their overpricing would limit sales. This was not connected with the pricing of e-bike batteries since I was making the point that e-biking was not too bad in comparison.

I'm not saying that there is no element of profiteering, only that if it exists, it is not specifically a battery problem. Many of the factors that make the e-bike battery so expensive are common in every respect to the bikes themselves. They both start out cheap at the factory gate in China and are multiplied by the same elements and percentages, these in large part dictated by the small size of the market.

Here's a simple lesson in something that some don't seem to understand. If an importer sells only one item per year, their entire year's running costs have to be added to that one item if they are to stay in business, making it hugely expensive. Not only that, the iniquitous 17.5% VAT is then added onto that grossly inflated price making it even worse. If their market grows so that they sell a large number of the item, the costs don't increase pro-rata and so the amount added per item can be very much smaller and the VAT also becomes correspondingly less onerous.

Those who want to avoid any risk of paying prices that don't reflect intrinsic content should stick to buying large volume selling items using old technology, and preferably buy from the just discontinued remaining stock just as a new version is released.

Hoping to get the same advantage from newer technology small selling lines is tilting at windmills.
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[fcurran]

I am glad to say I dont have the problem at the moment runnning old converted rickshaw and tricycle and as I run on lead acid.But the day will come when I will want a new lithium one for my Powabyke X24.
Can I have a free one Frank?

Nice try, but no!

All the best

FrankC

 

[Lloyd]

I used to have a Reliant Rialto, and it went backwards Got a public forum bashing on the Reliant owners forums for moddifying it though

 

[Alex728]

Surely the bigger issue is the infrastructure and the legislation?

the main reason e-bikes/scooters are much cheaper and popular in China is that they choose not to enforce their small moped licensing legislation, unlike EU nations. This is a trade off which results in more deaths on the road (although less than would be expected) but its unlikely the EU would make the same trade off in the near future.

20-25 years ago a computer with large disk drives you could connect to a larger network of other such machines was way expensive and only found in big business and academic places..the very thought of working class families having both this machine and a fast, very lightly regulated network to transmit data in nearly everyones house was thought of as a pipe dream...

people pay the same for e-bikes in NL and DE but of course they have better infrastructure.

I did some quick calculations and worked out that per watt hour the batteries in my camera cost way more than a Wisper battery, so I don't think its just ebikes where the batteries are costly..

everyone seems to overlook the safety implications. A well known Chinese battery supplier has this tagline

The new era has come, the new battery has arrived !Not explode, not burning, safe!

which does makes you wonder how many cheaper batteries did explode or burn

 

[flecc]

Surely the bigger issue is the infrastructure and the legislation?

the main reason e-bikes/scooters are much cheaper and popular in China is that they choose not to enforce their small moped licensing legislation, unlike EU nations.

people pay the same for e-bikes in NL and DE but of course they have better infrastructure.

The infrastructure is not necessarily crucial. As many have observed, they don't have better infrastructure everywhere in EU cycling countries, some of their conditions, even in Holland, as bad and even worse than ours.

Prices do not define the market either, the Dutch have very high prices but pro-rata are more a cycling and pedelec nation than China even, the Chinese overall cycling market falling all the time despite those low prices as they move into cars.

Nor is legislation a big factor, the Dutch with a huge market (expanding rapidly in e-bikes) have the strict EU rules that they seem happy to obey. We in Britain have much less strict rules at present and we are more inclined to break them, but our market is tiny and struggles to grow. Enforcing legislation can work, e.g. the London congestion charge, but not practical for use against a whole population.

No, the crucial thing is whether a nation is already a cycling nation. If it is, the e-bike market flourishes. Other factors like prices, legislation and infrastructure are helpful when the basic cycling condition is present, but can achieve nothing without that

everyone seems to overlook the safety implications. A well known Chinese battery supplier has this tagline

which does makes you wonder how many cheaper batteries did explode or burn

Loads of laptop batteries and not a few e-bike ones. We've had a number of swollen cells in here, one only the other day, plus some internal fires, one melted outer case and one explosion. Against the number of members that's quite a lot. There's also been the odd house burn down, thankfully not in this country.

Both lithium and NiMh involved, but as I've often observed, all batteries are potentially household bombs and many fire brigades have experience of car batteries going up suddenly following a wiring short. There's also been the "gas" explosions of the earlier open type lead acid batteries in the past.

Care and common sense applied can avoid trouble though, only charge when awake and present, only use an approved or suitable charger, don't use or measure a battery in an unorthodox way, don't have the battery near to combustibles, especially when charging, don't modify a bikes wiring or electronics unless you are certain of what you are doing.
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[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks Mark for putting forward the manufacturers point of view.

I recently bought a new battery for my Olympus E 500, I paid more than £70.00 for 7.2V 1500mAh, I could have bought a similar unit (unbranded) for far less, but would I want it in my expensive camera? Knowing a little about batteries and the importance of using high quality components..... absolutely not!

We at Wisper could supply far cheaper batteries with our bikes, as could all the better brands, especially as we all buy batteries by the 1000. It is no coincidence that the better bike batteries are expensive, it is simply because we use the best components available. Any one of us would massively benefit by supplying batteries at sub £200. In this now competetive market it would give a real edge over competition. The fact is that if we want to sell reliable bikes with a good range we have no choice but to use decent batteries.

Best regards

David

PS We do still give a £50.00 rebate on used 14A and £30.00 on used 8Ah batteries when part exchanged for a new battery.

 

[tillson]

Thanks Mark for putting forward the manufacturers point of view.

I recently bought a new battery for my Olympus E 500, I paid more than £70.00 for 7.2V 1500mAh, I could have bought a similar unit (unbranded) for far less, but would I want it in my expensive camera? Knowing a little about batteries and the importance of using high quality components..... absolutely not!

We at Wisper could supply far cheaper batteries with our bikes, as could all the better brands, especially as we all buy batteries by the 1000. It is no coincidence that the better bike batteries are expensive, it is simply because we use the best components available. Any one of us would massively benefit by supplying batteries at sub £200. In this now competetive market it would give a real edge over competition. The fact is that if we want to sell reliable bikes with a good range we have no choice but to use decent batteries.

Best regards

David

PS We do still give a £50.00 rebate on used 14A and £30.00 on used 8Ah batteries when part exchanged for a new battery.

I purchased an un-branded battery for my, not inexpensive, Leica camera over twelve months ago. It cost a fraction of the price of the branded one and has given flawless performance. I would not hesitate to buy another. The original Leica / Panasonic battery is many times more expensive and I believe that Leica / Panasonic are able to maintain this differential through scaremongering with regard to an unbranded battery somehow destroying your camera.

I have read through all of this thread and I am still of the opinion that, due to the customer having no choice over who supplies their battery, the manufacturers find the urge to inflate the prices irresistible.

 

[NRG]

Thanks Mark for putting forward the manufacturers point of view.

I recently bought a new battery for my Olympus E 500, I paid more than £70.00 for 7.2V 1500mAh, I could have bought a similar unit (unbranded) for far less, but would I want it in my expensive camera? Knowing a little about batteries and the importance of using high quality components..... absolutely not!

We at Wisper could supply far cheaper batteries with our bikes, as could all the better brands, especially as we all buy batteries by the 1000. It is no coincidence that the better bike batteries are expensive, it is simply because we use the best components available. Any one of us would massively benefit by supplying batteries at sub £200. In this now competetive market it would give a real edge over competition. The fact is that if we want to sell reliable bikes with a good range we have no choice but to use decent batteries.

Best regards

David

PS We do still give a £50.00 rebate on used 14A and £30.00 on used 8Ah batteries when part exchanged for a new battery.

I purchased an un-branded battery for my, not inexpensive, Leica camera over twelve months ago. It cost a fraction of the price of the branded one and has given flawless performance. I would not hesitate to buy another. The original Leica / Panasonic battery is many times more expensive and I believe that Leica / Panasonic are able to maintain this differential through scaremongering with regard to an unbranded battery somehow destroying your camera.

I have read through all of this thread and I am still of the opinion that, due to the customer having no choice over who supplies their battery, the manufacturers find the urge to inflate the prices irresistible.

+1 I did something similar with an old IBM laptop a while back, its been fine.

 

[flecc]

I have to agree on camera batteries, I always buy the cheap alternatives as second batteries for my cameras, use them alternately and they perform as well as the originals.

Certainly camera batteries are an income stream item for the photographic trade, struggling to maintain a presence after the catastrophic shock of digital cameras and inkjet printers destroying sales of of film and most photo printing.

The e-bike business is hardly similar to or comparable with that though, since none of the cycle trade's existing income stream from bicycle consumables has been destroyed by them. In fact in most cases e-bikes have increased that income stream, with increased usage, increased tyre wear, brake pad and rim wear and in some cases on crank drives, increased transmission wear. The greater average speeds and lower exercise levels have also increased protective cycle clothing sales.
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[eddieo]

replaced my 2 teenagers Dell laptops with non Dell branded batteries for about half the cost......seem OK so far

 

[tillson]

replaced my 2 teenagers Dell laptops with non Dell branded batteries for about half the cost......seem OK so far

Unbrande Dell laptop batteries come alive during the night. They creep about the house and eat your hamster. It's a well known fact at the Dell laptop battery factory.

 

[Stumpi]

Thanks Mark for putting forward the manufacturers point of view.

I recently bought a new battery for my Olympus E 500, I paid more than £70.00 for 7.2V 1500mAh, I could have bought a similar unit (unbranded) for far less, but would I want it in my expensive camera? Knowing a little about batteries and the importance of using high quality components..... absolutely not!

We at Wisper could supply far cheaper batteries with our bikes, as could all the better brands, especially as we all buy batteries by the 1000. It is no coincidence that the better bike batteries are expensive, it is simply because we use the best components available. Any one of us would massively benefit by supplying batteries at sub £200. In this now competetive market it would give a real edge over competition. The fact is that if we want to sell reliable bikes with a good range we have no choice but to use decent batteries.

Best regards

David

PS We do still give a £50.00 rebate on used 14A and £30.00 on used 8Ah batteries when part exchanged for a new battery.

Slightly off topic but am I right in remembering you have a larger battery again in the pipeline? Any news?

 

[Mussels]

Unbrande Dell laptop batteries come alive during the night. They creep about the house and eat your hamster. It's a well known fact at the Dell laptop battery factory.

That's better than a branded Dell battery that explodes in the night!