How many electric bikes do you see out on the roads?

Branwen

Pedelecer
Oct 2, 2007
97
1
...felt rather concerned for him as he wobbled up a hill. So that is the grand total of 4 electric bikers spotted in a city of 500,000. Alex (Carrera).
HA! Now I finally work out who Alex is...duh.

That old fella might be "The Famous Sid", the only blind electric bike rider in Edinburgh. I was introduced to him at The Electric Bicycle Company when I took their Easyglider for a test, and he had me in stitches with his stories of mishaps. One was very similar to one I had, though I didn't have the excuse of not being able to see when it happened to me, so I can't judge, but he sticks to cycle paths mostly, I understand.
 

Branwen

Pedelecer
Oct 2, 2007
97
1
EU legislators should be made aware of this fact, as I think the new rules would be rather unfair for those who would like to participate in cycling as a form of exercise.

What does everyone else think on this?
I have a related thought, why is it that with a disability I could buy an electric vehicle to travel along the pavement with no VAT from a dealership, but because I chose to try and keep flexible joints and muscles, and use an electric bike, I couldn't get the VAT back, despite it being a choice partly to help with fibromyalgia pain and stiffness? Any bike company out there that can sort out the electric bike VAT thing out can be my replacement supplier, as my LaFree is due for retirement to spare bike and I fancy an Agattu, BTW.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
I have a related thought, why is it that with a disability I could buy an electric vehicle to travel along the pavement with no VAT from a dealership, but because I chose to try and keep flexible joints and muscles, and use an electric bike, I couldn't get the VAT back, despite it being a choice partly to help with fibromyalgia pain and stiffness? Any bike company out there that can sort out the electric bike VAT thing out can be my replacement supplier, as my LaFree is due for retirement to spare bike and I fancy an Agattu, BTW.
In fact the law says that those disability vehicle can travel at 4 mph on the pavement and 8 mph on roads, so they are even closer to electric bikes than might appear at first. Still can't see the treasury giving in though.
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alex

Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2007
43
0
Edinburgh
Another gripe

While talking to my friend the electric biking decorator today about how he needs a replacement for his ancient Heinzman Estelle we bemoaned the unfair treatment of self-employed electric bikers. Any tradesman with a work vehicle can offset the cost of that vehicle against tax liability, spending on a van is viewed as a legitimate business expense. We assume an electric bike would not be allowable, perhaps a good accountant could make a case for the self employed e-biker? We don't benefit from the equivalent of the 'Bike to Work' scheme offered to empoyees of participating firms so some incentive to stop congesting city centres would seem fair. My friend transports pots of paint etc in a trailer & would be helped by some means of spreading the cost over a few years like the capital allowance given to van owners.
 

frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
Alex,
This has come up before. My reading of the rules is that your decorator friend could buy a bike and offset it against tax.
See here for the previous discussion
Frank
 

carpetbagger

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 20, 2007
744
18
blackburn
i have seen 2 powabykes near to where i live and 2 chained up in blackburn town centre. My son says he was passed by two powabykes whilst travelling up a long hill nearby
 

Branwen

Pedelecer
Oct 2, 2007
97
1
We assume an electric bike would not be allowable, perhaps a good accountant could make a case for the self employed e-biker? .
With companies getting into carbon offsetting projects, I would imagine the accountant could justify it. When I was in business for myself, it was just a case of making the justification, ruling out electric is going against all the principles businesses are supposed to embrace for climate change, so I doubt the tax man can disqualify the bike as a legitimate expense.

On a related issue, I've seen websites now for electric tricycles to be used in warehouses for moving stock around, and for use on the road, so if a trcycle counts, why not a bike?
 

ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Bikes could attract tax relief



With companies getting into carbon offsetting projects, I would imagine the accountant could justify it. When I was in business for myself, it was just a case of making the justification, ruling out electric is going against all the principles businesses are supposed to embrace for climate change, so I doubt the tax man can disqualify the bike as a legitimate expense.

On a related issue, I've seen websites now for electric tricycles to be used in warehouses for moving stock around, and for use on the road, so if a trcycle counts, why not a bike?
It is not that it's a bike that precludes one from claiming tax relief on the Capital Cost, it would be the fact that it is NOT USED IN THE BUSINESS. Pretending it is does not count. Remember, business does not start for the self-employed until they reach the business address and ceases when they leave it. Calling on clients/customers on the "journey to the business premises" does not inspire an Inspector of Taxes to be generous. I think for many business men/women, cycles, even electric ones, are difficult to fit into a business ethos. One might argue that using a cycle in business is quite feasible: but one must actually use it. AND only that portion of it's total life that applies to business travel may be claimed.
These are the rules of taxation for the self-employed (NOT Company Directors). Of course, it may just be that with the arrival of the "carbon footprint" Revenue and Customs may be able to take a different view of such an expense..
It seems to me that the Revenue have made an exception in the case of the employed who get tax/NIC relief (using quite different rules) regardless of whether they use the bike to get to work or not. Previously, the cost of getting to work (train fares, bus fares, motor expenses) could not be claimed against tax/NIC, and if motor expenses were so incurred as part of total use, including some business use, those expenses would be apportioned.
I would say that this is the Revenue's position: I am only explaining it.
P.
 

frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
But Pete, the decorator uses the bike for making visits to his customers - not to a regular place of work. Because of the nature of the job, he doesn't have a regular place of work and the travelling is an integral part of his work. He even carries all his gear on the bike and trailer!

I'm sure he could buy a bike and claim it as a business expense.

Frank
 

ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Tax relief for the self employed

But Pete, the decorator uses the bike for making visits to his customers - not to a regular place of work. Because of the nature of the job, he doesn't have a regular place of work and the travelling is an integral part of his work. He even carries all his gear on the bike and trailer!

I'm sure he could buy a bike and claim it as a business expense.

Frank
Everyone in business has a "Place of Business" even though that may be his home. Where home is his business address then he is on business the moment he leaves it for a customer's address. It is the itinerant nature of a trade that is a major test as to whether or not a person is self-employed. Working for one person, company or undertaking makes it difficult for a taxpayer to claim he/she is self employed (but there are many other tests to be applied to determine his/her exact status).
So, if he takes with him, to his customer's address, the "tools of his trade" or merely calls upon his customer to carry out the terms of his contract (written or oral) he may charge against his Income from the Trade, the cost of getting there (Car, Train, Bus, Taxi, Aeroplane, or Electric Bicycle - even boat) to arrive at his profits for tax purposes. This makes for some difficulty with the claim for such expenses where those expenses are required to be apportioned because the "asset" is owned by the taxpayer (it is not owned by the business because the business is not a legal entity apart from its owner) and is also used in the taxpayer's private capacity (outside the business) e.g. the capital cost of a motor vehicle or e-bicycle, etc. Similarly, running expenses incurred must also be apportioned between business use and private use. This is so even if the taxpayer visits Tesco on his way to or from the customer, notwithstanding that he might argue he incurred no greater expense in this sort of diversion.
On must think laterally.
Having established that there is a business use, the proportion to be applied to the business is the taxpayer's responsibility. Normally, there is little trouble in doing so with the help of his/her accountant, provided the claim is reasonable and fits with the circumstances of the case.
Notional expenditure is not deductible from business profits. e.g expenses not actually incurred that would have been incurred but for a change of circumstance: that is to say, not returning to the business address but staying overnight with a friend.
It's a tough old world.

YES! In the above scenario he could buy an e-bike and charge some or all (as suits the case) of the running expenses to the business including a portion of the Capital Cost (as defined in the Rules for Capital Allowances for Plant and Machinery).

It seems to me to be an aberration that an employee can reduce his liability to tax and NIC by "LEASING" an Electric bike from his employer, (provided the parties have gone thru' the detailed niceties of the scheme), that has as much to do with Salary Sacrifice as "Carbon Footprint".
P.
PS. It seems this thread "How many electric bikes........." has been high-jacked into an unrelated thread concerning "Tax relief on bicycles".
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
PS. It seems this thread "How many electric bikes........." has been high-jacked into an unrelated thread concerning "Tax relief on bicycles".
Ok, so to get it back on track, how many electric bikes could the decorator claim for etc - - - - - - - -

No, don't answer. :D
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C

Cyclezee

Guest
Yes, back to the thread. I have only been into electric bikes for 5 months, I got hooked when I saw a man riding one at a car boot sale and went chasing after him, it was a tatty old Lafree Twist, but I got chatting and that was it, love at first sight, the Lafree that is not the man! Since then I have seen several electric bikes on my travels around the UK, but only ever Powabykes, not a single Lafree, Ezee or other what I assumed to be the most popular bikes. Isn't that strange? I have tried to engage in friendly conversation to Powabykers when I have been out riding, but they just don't respond! I know what you are thinking it's me isn't it, I'm the weird one, trying to talk to a stranger, probably due to me being a an immigrant from Scotland:rolleyes:

Oh dear starting to ramble again, must be all the Irn Bru

John
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Although we have the off few enthusiast Powabyke owners, I think the majority are very different and just regard it as utility transport they bought from the bike shop. They're no more enthusiastic about it than they would be with an ordinary roadster utility bike.

I've often wondered where all the e-bikes get to. I've only ever seen one in the 16 years they've been on out roads, a Lafree Twist, and that was parked and locked. The local Giant dealer has sold about 15 Lafrees, and the local Powabyke dealer has shifted a few over the years, but they've apparently vanished.

I meet a number of people who don't know me but open conversation on the basis of having seen me on one of my e-bikes, and that happens even when I'm out walking, which I frequently do. If the other bikes were on the road in the area you'd expect those to be seen in the same way, but people I've chatted with say mine is the only one they've ever seen. I can only conclude that the others frequently end up at the back of a garage.
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carpetbagger

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 20, 2007
744
18
blackburn
i think we would see more bikes and e-bikes if the government started to invest in specific bike lanes. We have the lancashire cycle way, a marvellous piece if engineering work near blackburn,,,the way they have painted those white lines is unbelievable..!! that is really going to encourage people to get out of cars and onto bikes.In the south of france a few years ago i discovered 30 miles of continuous cycle lanes with protection from the roads. The way forward is investment for cyclists. So all you MPS who are reading this forum...get your bleedin fingers out !!
 

gkilner

Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2007
50
0
West Yorkshire
I see 2 electric bikes most days.

I pass someone riding the opposite way to me on the way to and from work. (A58 Whitehall Road, Leeds). I'm not sure if he is on this forum. It’s an Ezee Torq.

I have also seen someone on a Black Powabyke Euro a few times, near my work in Batley, West Yorks.

I remember the first time I saw the guy on the Torq, we both took a double take, I couldn't quite believe what I'd seen. These days, we might give the occasional nod to each other, but never have time to stop for a chat. I'm assuming we are both on our way to work.

I'm dyeing to ask if his bike ever cuts out on the hills we both encounter!
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
I only recently (very recently - as in two weeks!) started to look out for electric bikes in and around Dublin. Given the small market here and the lack of distributors I'm amazed that I see two electric bikes as I make my way to work.

The first is a "Patria" I think (the person who owns it locks it to a lamp post but has wrapped the frame in pipe insulating tube - you know the thick foam insulation for protecting pipes against frost - so I cant make it out entirely). I've done a search on google and couldn't find any reference to an electric bike from Patria. I'll have to take a photo and see if any one recognises the make and model.

The second bike is also locked to a lamp post when I see it and its a GIANT Twist (not sure which model). I felt a little funny eyeing up a locked bike so I didn't spend too long looking at it!! I was surprised to see one at all. Nice looking bike.

I'm hoping to spot the owners of these bikes soon so I can find out how they got them and how they are getting on in Dublin traffic.

John
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
Well I live in a small town (pop 4,000) in the middle of nowhere, and I've seen three in the last hour. One was mine, one belongs to a guy who works in the same building as me, so these two I see all the time. But just now someone took a short cut through our car park on one. Looked like a step through frame and a crank motor but I didn't have time to identify it.

Nick
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
BTW, on the tax relief issue, my accoutant has told me to put it through the company and claim the VAT back. Any private use is incidental. Apparently the revenue has been told to go easy on bicycles.

Nick
 

Footie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 16, 2007
549
10
Cornwall. PL27
I've had my electric bike for about sixth months. I have only seen one other electric bike in that time. Strange when you think I live near to a major holiday cycle route. It was the first time I ever went out on my bike. I went for a short half-mile trip to Jewsons on the industrial estate.
The bike was silver, looked very old and was rust peppered – it was a step through. There was only one other person in the store and he was wearing blue overalls – probably from one of the units on the industrial estate.
When I came out the bike was gone. Unfortunately, I was so engrossed in my own bike I didn’t pay it much attention – wish I had now
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Ian

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2007
1,333
0
Leicester LE4, UK.
My bikes have been to Cornwall and have had a fair bit of use on most of the cycle trails yet the only other electric I've seen there was a Powabyke on the Camel Trail, in fact bikes of desription seem rare on any of the trails other than the Bodmin-Padstow section of the Camel Trail. I've ridden the other end of the Camel Trail and many of the Mineral Tramways trails outside of the main season without seeing another cyclist.

I was seeing electrics quite regularly back home in the Midlands up until a few weeks ago but I haven't seen any since then.