Gin X

[LesG]

One question about torque, Is there a formula for working it out from the general specifications given on the websites of these bikes without contacting them, as a lot of them don't mention torque ?

 

[Saracen]

"A front wheel hub motor conversion is simply a wheel exchange and some bolt on cable tie on of the controller battery and handlebar kit plugging it together, and tidying up the cables.. watch a couple of youtube vids.. "

And terrible in the wet when cornering

 

[Saracen]

Thank you everyone for your input , this really is a great forum even if it does confuse me a little, but that is the thing about forums, lots of people with varying opinions.
I am still not keen on converting a bike so will now search for a ready made hybrid ebike with the following features.

Hydraulic disc brakes
Air suspension forks (although not a deal breaker as per info from Saneagle )
Mid motor
Torque at least 60nm
Highest Wh I can get, but deffo over 400Wh
I'll be luck for 1.5k, but may stretch to 2k

Les

Look for a well established supplier like the one I used

Wales

Homepage → Cogs Y Gogs - eBike Workshop Supplier & Installer

Gweithdy beics ac beics trydan We service and repair Bicycles and Electric bikes. Cogs Y Gogs North Wales Bicycle & e-bike Workshopfor all your bicycle servicing and Repairs VIEW OUR SERVICES & PRICE LIST Your one stop shop for bicycle and e-bike servicing & Repair Spaces Available NOW Tel-...

www.cogsygogs.co.uk

 

[Saracen]

Can I confuse you a bit more?

Look for hydraulic brakes or cable disc brakes. It is cheap to upgrade to hydraulic.
Mid drive is not a good choice for a hybrid IMO I would go with rear hub as firs choice. Front hub as second and mid drive as third.
You have a very healthy budget. Keep conversion as an option. You can always pay somebody if you are not confident to do it yourself.

I dare you to come off road with me in forests with a HUB drive LOL

 

[saneagle]

One question about torque, Is there a formula for working it out from the general specifications given on the websites of these bikes without contacting them, as a lot of them don't mention torque ?

No. take anything anybody says about torque with a pinch of salt. You can get a good idea of how much climbing power you get by multiplying the battery voltage by the controller maximum current. The same motor in the same bike will climb differently depending on the other things. 36v battery and 15 amp controller gives 540 climbing power. With an 18 amp controller you get 648. With 15 amp controller and 48v battery you get 720.

Next, is the effect of wheel size. If the above applies to a 26" wheel, the 540, 648 and 720 in a 20" wheel become 702, 842 and 936, and in a 29er, they reduce to 484, 580 and 645.

Then there's the effect of the motor windings that determine the maximum RPM. The lower the max RPM, the more efficient the motor becomes when climbing. The difference is difficult to quantify, but you can feel the difference between a motor with max 201 rpm compared with the more normal 260 rpm, but a 201 rpm motor will not reach 15 mph when the battery runs down.

Finally, there's the effect of the internal reduction ratios. A motor with a high reduction ratio, gives more torque, but they pair that with a high winding speed to get the ideal max wheel speed of around 260 rpm. High reduction ratio motors seem to be able to handle climbing better because their stall speed is lower in terms of wheel rpm.

All that theory is not necessary. If you're worried about hills, get a bike with a 48v system, and you'll be fine.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

I don't know if this is too MTBy but

27.5" Electric Mountain Bike E-ST 500 - Black ROCKRIDER | Decathlon

This electric mountain bike is perfect for all-terrain rides with a decent amount of climbing. Comfortable to ride, it has an ultra-quiet mid-drive…

www.decathlon.co.uk

Electric Mountain Bikes - Full Suspension E Bike | Decathlon

Conquer any terrain effortlessly with our electric mountain bikes. Discover power and agility in one ride. Choose your perfect electric MTB and…

www.decathlon.co.uk

They are proprietry technology so probably only Decathlon would be able to fix - I would take out extended warranty !

 

[Az.]

I dare you to come off road with me in forests with a HUB drive LOL

Do you know expression "right tool for the job"? Les is not looking for hard core mountain ride and we try to tailor recommendations to his needs while you are entrenched in your views and keep on with motto "mid drive is the best".

BTW riding in a forest is not a challenge. It is a pleasure and I would love to ride one day with you.
...but not to prove anything.

 

[Az.]

And terrible in the wet when cornering

I don't experience any problems with cornering.

You present yourself as a passionate off road cyclist. If I might offer a suggestion, I would recommend new mtb tyres.
Tyres you have are more suitable for delicate leisure use.

 

[LesG]

No. take anything anybody says about torque with a pinch of salt. You can get a good idea of how much climbing power you get by multiplying the battery voltage by the controller maximum current. The same motor in the same bike will climb differently depending on the other things. 36v battery and 15 amp controller gives 540 climbing power. With an 18 amp controller you get 648. With 15 amp controller and 48v battery you get 720.

Next, is the effect of wheel size. If the above applies to a 26" wheel, the 540, 648 and 720 in a 20" wheel become 702, 842 and 936, and in a 29er, they reduce to 484, 580 and 645.

Then there's the effect of the motor windings that determine the maximum RPM. The lower the max RPM, the more efficient the motor becomes when climbing. The difference is difficult to quantify, but you can feel the difference between a motor with max 201 rpm compared with the more normal 260 rpm, but a 201 rpm motor will not reach 15 mph when the battery runs down.

Finally, there's the effect of the internal reduction ratios. A motor with a high reduction ratio, gives more torque, but they pair that with a high winding speed to get the ideal max wheel speed of around 260 rpm. High reduction ratio motors seem to be able to handle climbing better because their stall speed is lower in terms of wheel rpm.

All that theory is not necessary. If you're worried about hills, get a bike with a 48v system, and you'll be fine.

That is very well explained thank you, I really appreciate you going to the time and effort to reply, however, the information provided for most bikes does not mention either RPM or internal reduction ratios, is this again only available by contacting the supplier?

 

[Peter.Bridge]

I don't know if this is too MTBy but

27.5" Electric Mountain Bike E-ST 500 - Black ROCKRIDER | Decathlon

This electric mountain bike is perfect for all-terrain rides with a decent amount of climbing. Comfortable to ride, it has an ultra-quiet mid-drive…

www.decathlon.co.uk

Electric Mountain Bikes - Full Suspension E Bike | Decathlon

Conquer any terrain effortlessly with our electric mountain bikes. Discover power and agility in one ride. Choose your perfect electric MTB and…

www.decathlon.co.uk

They are proprietry technology so probably only Decathlon would be able to fix - I would take out extended warranty !

if you weren't doing heavy duty moutain biking and the only reason you wanted mid drive was hill climbing ability then I would be tempted by

Gran Camino MTB electric bicycle from Woosh

The Woosh Gran Camino, a 27.5 electric mountain bike with hydraulic brakes 36V 15AH/17AH battery from Woosh. Price range: £1379-£1459. Great bike for trails.

wooshbikes.co.uk

Much more generic Chinese technology , easier to fix out of warranty and Woosh have excellent customer service reputation. Also Woosh choose motors with gearing / winding that are at their strongest up to and around the UK motor assist limit (25km/h)

or a bit more "integrated" and a bit more expensive

Tailwind Trail Crossbar E-Bike

Wisper Tailwind Trail Crossbar e-bikes: designed for off-road adventures, featuring powerful motors & long-lasting batteries for extended rides.

wisperbikes.com

Again Wisper have very good customer service reputation

 

[LesG]

if you weren't doing heavy duty moutain biking and the only reason you wanted mid drive was hill climbing ability then I would be tempted by

Gran Camino MTB electric bicycle from Woosh

The Woosh Gran Camino, a 27.5 electric mountain bike with hydraulic brakes 36V 15AH/17AH battery from Woosh. Price range: £1379-£1459. Great bike for trails.

wooshbikes.co.uk

Much more generic Chinese technology , easier to fix out of warranty and Woosh have excellent customer service reputation. Also Woosh choose motors with gearing / winding that are at their strongest up to and around the UK motor assist limit (25km/h)

or a bit more "integrated" and a bit more expensive

Tailwind Trail Crossbar E-Bike

Wisper Tailwind Trail Crossbar e-bikes: designed for off-road adventures, featuring powerful motors & long-lasting batteries for extended rides.

wisperbikes.com

Again Wisper have very good customer service reputation

The gran-camino looks good, but all other advice is to go for a 48v battery bike, but I will deffo keep this one in mind

 

[Peter.Bridge]

There this 48v ncm one on offer, there's a few people here with ncm bikes

NCM Venice Plus Trekking E-Bike, City-Bike, 250W, 16Ah 768Wh Battery, [Black 28]

NCM Venice Plus 28’’ 48V 16Ah Battery Trekking Electric bike, a versatile ebike with ebike lights, mudguards, and kickstand. NCM bikes Australia for sale!

www.leoncycle.co.uk

I'm not convinced that it would be quite as good up hills as the 36v x 20A controller gran Camino, and it's a bit heavier (only relevant when you aren't riding it), although I'm sure it would have a higher derestricted top speed

 

[Woosh]

I'm not convinced that it would be quite as good up hills as the 36v x 20A controller gran Camino, and it's a bit heavier (only relevant when you aren't riding it), although I'm sure it would have a higher derestricted top speed

The Gran Camino has Suntour XCM 100mm fork with remote hydraulic lockout and bolt through 12mm maxle which costs twice as much as the Suntour NEX 63mm on the NCM and about as good sprung coil forks are going to get without going air forks. The Gran Camino has internal cable routing, the NCM doesn't.
If I were going for top derestricted speed, I would fit an Ananda crank drive motor to the Gran Camino. The cost is only about £50 more.

 

[saneagle]

That is very well explained thank you, I really appreciate you going to the time and effort to reply, however, the information provided for most bikes does not mention either RPM or internal reduction ratios, is this again only available by contacting the supplier?

You only have to take notice of the last paragraph. That info is nearly always included in the listings.

 

[LesG]

There this 48v ncm one on offer, there's a few people here with ncm bikes

NCM Venice Plus Trekking E-Bike, City-Bike, 250W, 16Ah 768Wh Battery, [Black 28]

NCM Venice Plus 28’’ 48V 16Ah Battery Trekking Electric bike, a versatile ebike with ebike lights, mudguards, and kickstand. NCM bikes Australia for sale!

www.leoncycle.co.uk

I'm not convinced that it would be quite as good up hills as the 36v x 20A controller gran Camino, and it's a bit heavier (only relevant when you aren't riding it), although I'm sure it would have a higher derestricted top speed

I have no intention of derestricting any bike I get, I want to ride on roads and be legal.
What is your reason for saying that a 48v wouldn't be as good as this 36v bike for hills, all other info on here says 48v is the way to go?
Thanks
Les

 

[LesG]

The Gran Camino has Suntour XCM 100mm fork with remote hydraulic lockout and bolt through 12mm maxle which costs twice as much as the Suntour NEX 63mm on the NCM and about as good sprung coil forks are going to get without going air forks. The Gran Camino has internal cable routing, the NCM doesn't.
If I were going for top derestricted speed, I would fit an Ananda crank drive motor to the Gran Camino. The cost is only about £50 more.

There does appear to be a 400 pounds difference in the two bikes aprt from the forks, cable routing and 3kg in weight they seem to be very similar.
And I deffo will not be going derestricted.
Thanks
Les

 

[LesG]

You only have to take notice of the last paragraph. That info is nearly always included in the listings.

I don't know if I am stupid or blind ;-) as I can't see any mention of it on either of these latest two bike suggestions

 

[Peter.Bridge]

I have no intention of derestricting any bike I get, I want to ride on roads and be legal.
What is your reason for saying that a 48v wouldn't be as good as this 36v bike for hills, all other info on here says 48v is the way to go?
Thanks
Les

I suspect either of those bikes would be fine (would have to know your weight and the gradient of those hills) but to try to answer your question to the best of my knowledge.

1) The peak power supplied by the Gran Camino controller is 20A * 36 V = 720w (I think you can actually adjust it within the display between 18A-21A) which is very powerful.
2) The Gran Camino uses the DWG22C motor which is a quite big motor that has been optimised for high torque, the Venice Plus has a smaller (still good) X15 motor which is not as torquey
3) I think the Gran Camino unrestricted max speed is 18-19mph which means the motor winding / gearing is optimised for speeds up to 15.5 mph - the NCM unrestricted speed is much faster (25mph I believe), so I think that for speeds up to 15.5 mph the motor is not quite at its optimum

Personally the big factor for me is customer service (including outside the warranty period) where Woosh wins

 

[LesG]

I suspect either of those bikes would be fine (would have to know your weight and the gradient of those hills) but to try to answer your question to the best of my knowledge.

1) The peak power supplied by the Gran Camino controller is 20A * 36 V = 720w (I think you can actually adjust it within the display between 18A-21A) which is very powerful.
2) The Gran Camino uses the DWG22C motor which is a quite big motor that has been optimised for high torque, the Venice Plus has a smaller (still good) X15 motor which is not as torquey
3) I think the Gran Camino unrestricted max speed is 18-19mph which means the motor winding / gearing is optimised for speeds up to 15.5 mph - the NCM unrestricted speed is much faster (25mph I believe), so I think that for speeds up to 15.5 mph the motor is not quite at its optimum

Personally the big factor for me is customer service (including outside the warranty period) where Woosh wins

That is a great answer and is certainly pushing me towards one of the bikes.
I am not after great speed, more power is more important
I am 61 in decent health, knees just about holding up, 12 stone 4lbs and the gradients around my home are up to 10 % but can be long stretches of uphill but less degree to boot. Here is a link to a Strava ride to give you an indication of the type of hill all around me https://www.strava.com/segments/1554430

 

[saneagle]

I have no intention of derestricting any bike I get, I want to ride on roads and be legal.
What is your reason for saying that a 48v wouldn't be as good as this 36v bike for hills, all other info on here says 48v is the way to go?
Thanks
Les

If two bikes have the same size wheels, 36v x 20A = 720 climbing power. 48v x 15A = 720 climbing power.

48v is more efficient than 36v, since it runs at lower current, so makes less heat.

If one has smaller wheels than the other, the one with the smallest wheels wins.