Fast Legal Bike

[SRS]

What is the difference between someone taking an S Class, turning into a moped and registering it or someone just registering it and using it. I would suggest no difference.

I understand your explanation but do feel that the UK stance on S Pedelecs is severely hampering growth of the pedelec / ebike market.
Dealers and the public are being denied a great opportunity to benefit from this relatively new form of transport.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Gentlemen,let's put aside the legality,the insurance,the morals and face facts,cycling is dangerous and high powered e-bikes are very dangerous,various governments round the world are confused as to how to lower the risk. The 250 watt e-bike still uses brakes,albeit good ones,from a standard bicycle,despite the weight and power being considerably increased,no point upping the braking power because I suspect the tyres would then be the limit. These 1500 watt bikes are not engineered to take that extra power,in fact in many cases the engineering is awful.
China shows us how things will end up,1800 watt e-mopeds,e-scooters,there are now 3000 plus deaths annually with 150 million e-bikes causing hundreds of thousands of accidents....the Chinese cannot make up their minds what to do about it,they clamp down,confiscate the bikes,ban them completely,in Guangzhou there was a riot when the police acted to stop the illegals. Just Google ' fatal electric bike crashes'.....images. Those images are not for the squeamish.
So those who say ,what harm can an illegal bike do,it is there for your own eyes to see.
Companies like KTM are building e-bikes with the best engineering standards and parts to minimise the risks as much as possible.
I was standing on the pavement in Houjie,near Guangzhou. A very powerful e-bike spun out of control in front of me,he missed me by inches,hitting the lady next to me,the monster of a bike spun amongst those crossing the road,hitting several,the young lad riding it was badly hurt.
I tried to pick up the bike but realised that it was locked on full power and if the tyre hit the deck I wouldnt have been able to hold onto it,I wisely left it revving.
So those who are wishing unlimited power may not fully appreciate what the end game could be,don't forget that e-bikes can be ridden by 14 year olds.
If such a scenario happened here,there is a danger that the UK government could take the easy option like New York,some chinese cities,Singapore and banning them completely...if there were a spate of fatalities I can see that happening,that is the danger for your enjoyment and our industry. As e-bikes become more numerate they are likely to come under greater scrutiny,it would be sensible for us all to avoid that attention and stay legal.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

What is the difference between someone taking an S Class, turning into a moped and registering it or someone just registering it and using it. I would suggest no difference.

Sorry, but there is a very big difference, the CBT and driving test.

I understand your explanation but do feel that the UK stance on S Pedelecs is severely hampering growth of the pedelec / ebike market.

If the evidence supported this I would agree, but it doesn't. The Netherlands has by an immense margin the most successful pedelec/e-bike market in the western world and they don't have the S class.

As I've often posted in here, the key to a successful market for pedelecs and e-bikes is a population wide acceptance and usage of cycling.

 

[SRS]

Point 1, CBT and driving test could be applicable to both routes.

The Netherlands is not a typical example as they already had a cycling population prior to the introduction of any form of pedelec. Happy to potter along all day.

The UK as you rightly say are not a cycling nation. We never will be in my opinion. Cycling's too much like hard work and takes for ever to get anywhere might be a standard response.
Faster ebikes / pedelecs may be a solution. Lets have a social experiment to see if I and others of the same opinion are right. Lots to gain but nothing to lose.

The alternative is to keep buying more and more cars as 15 mph bikes clearly do not meet the needs of a good many.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Point 1, CBT and driving test could be applicable to both routes.

The Netherlands is not a typical example as they already had a cycling population prior to the introduction of any form of pedelec. Happy to potter along all day.

The UK as you rightly say are not a cycling nation. We never will be in my opinion. Cycling's too much like hard work and takes for ever to get anywhere might be a standard response.
Faster ebikes / pedelecs may be a solution. Lets have a social experiment to see if I and others of the same opinion are right. Lots to gain but nothing to lose.

I agree with your first points, but I'm afraid there is a mountain of research done by the likes of British Cycling, Sport England, the CTC, sustrains and many many more that give a wide range of reasons why people in this country don't see cycling as an a option for a form of transport and I'm afraid I don't think ive ever seen "it's not fast enough" given as the reason.

I will check this of course and post back when I'm in front of a proper computer

Edit .....

Just found this on my phone, which is a good summary of lots of research.

http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/barriers-cycling

Some good things in there like "too many hills" which Ebikes can help with , but nothing I can see about a need to have a top speed in excess of what is currently achievable on a legal Ebike.

 

[SRS]

I agree with your first points, but I'm afraid there is a mountain of research done by the likes of British Cycling, Sport England, the CTC, sustrains and many many more that give a wide range of reasons why people in this country don't see cycling as an a option for a form of transport and I'm afraid I don't think ive ever seen "it's not fast enough" given as the reason.

I will check this of course and post back when I'm in front of a proper computer

People pop to the paper shop in the car all the time. May only be a mile or two. Ask them why and the response is usually, its quicker to use the car.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

People pop to the paper shop in the car all the time. May only be a mile or two. Ask them why and the response is usually, its quicker to use the car.

True, but that doesn't mean they'd use the bike if it was faster. And again this isn't my opinion its established research.

People don't cycle because of the perceivedrisk (not the actual risk), the weather, the security at the destination, sweating etc etc. an Ebike would help with lots of the negatives as is being proven. But there is no research that suggest if they went faster more would use them.

 

[flecc]

The Netherlands is not a typical example as they already had a cycling population prior to the introduction of any form of pedelec. Happy to potter along all day.

Being typical or not isn't relevant, the point I was clearly making is that their success with e-bikes is entirely due to having that large cycling population and nothing to do with having faster e-bikes.

Germany also has a large cycling population and therefore the second largest pedelec/e-bike acceptance in Europe, again nothing to do with the S class which are a small minority there compared to EU legal pedelecs. As many of us feel, they mostly don't like the many restrictions the S class brings, like being unable to use cyclepaths and shared use facilities. As motor vehicles they are mainly stuck with roads, using them is far less free than our pedelec cycling.

No matter what the arguments raised against what I've said, what KTM has emphasised, and what the Netherlands and Germany show, pedelec/e-bike acceptance is nothing to do with assist speed and everything to do with prior acceptance of cycling. Those who have never cycled just don't take up e-biking.

In this respect the prospects for pedelecs here have been seriously limited in the last three decades and more by excessively protective modern parents not allowing their children to have a bicycle. The authorities know this, hence the many initiatives to try to get children to learn to cycle and cycle to school, but it's an unequal battle that the protective parents usually win.

That's the campaign we and cycling bodies should be fighting, getting children back onto bikes and on the roads as they once always were. If that succeeds, e-biking will also succeed.
.

 

[mike killay]

In winter, I only go at 10mph because it is too cold to go faster.
It is amazing how I can cut across the city centre at 10mph.
Faster than a car.
And this is Swansea City Centre (pop c. 280,000)

 

[flecc]

In winter, I only go at 10mph because it is too cold to go faster.
It is amazing how I can cut across the city centre at 10mph.
Faster than a car.
And this is Swansea City Centre (pop c. 280,000)

Me too at slower speeds. I once had a 22mph assist e-bike but quickly stopped using that speed and it was the shortest owned e-bike I've had. I much prefered the legal assist to 15/16 mph e-bike I also had, for it's goggle-free comfort in cold or windy or dusty conditions.

The difference between cruising at 15 or 20 mph even on quite long commutes is often quite small, since the 20 mph one has to slow down more and more often than the "slower" bike. Both are brought to a halt at lights etc, both are as fast downhill and the legal pedelec can be pedalled above 15 mph, all further equalling out the performance.

That means the apparent 10 minute difference between the two on a 10 mile commute is whittled down to perhaps 5 or 6 minutes, depending on the route nature. So is it really worth losing all of the pedelec freedoms for such a trifling gain? I think not, like the Dutch, I'd rather sit back and enjoy the leisurely ride with the freedoms included.
.

 

[SRS]

Flecc, totally agree with getting the kids cycling. In fact get them out house into the fresh air full stop.

Not sure I can or will ever agree with your thoughts on assist speed. I do however wonder why so many appear run bikes that do not cutoff at the legal limit.

 

[flecc]

Not sure I can or will ever agree with your thoughts on assist speed. I do however wonder why so many appear run bikes that do not cutoff at the legal limit.

Not so much my thoughts as the evidence from the cycling countries, if they cycle they e-bike also, regardless of assist speeds.

Running e-bikes with derestriction is often mentioned in here but we must not think it's widespread, that would be a big mistake. It's largely only some of the enthusiasts that do it, peope who occupy forums such as this and the international ES. We are a tiny minority as Frank of Powabyke often reminded us from his long experience of selling them into the mass market.

This forum has 9000 members, many of whom are in other countries, and only a few of that 9000 have ever made more than a tiny number of posts on entry and are mostly permanently absent thereafter. Even among the persistent posting forum members at least half make it clear they won't use desrestriction etc, so the derestricting enthusiast core is probably only in the few hundreds. Out there in the UK there's at least 120,000 e-bikes, almost all of them being used as delivered, restricted.

That puts a very different light on the supposed demand for more assist speed. Truth is it's very small.
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[Croxden]

."....."............"

 

[selrahc1992]

Not so much my thoughts as the evidence from the cycling countries, if they cycle they e-bike also, regardless of assist speeds.

Running e-bikes with derestriction is often mentioned in here but we must not think it's widespread, that would be a big mistake. It's largely only some of the enthusiasts that do it, peope who occupy forums such as this and the international ES. We are a tiny minority as Frank of Powabyke often reminded us from his long experience of selling them into the mass market.

This forum has 9000 members, many of whom are in other countries, and only a few of that 9000 have ever made more than a tiny number of posts on entry and are mostly permanently absent thereafter. Even among the persistent posting forum members at least half make it clear they won't use desrestriction etc, so the derestricting enthusiast core is probably only in the few hundreds. Out there in the UK there's at least 120,000 e-bikes, almost all of them being used as delivered, restricted.

That puts a very different light on the supposed demand for more assist speed. Truth is it's very small.
.

finally some real perspective (this thread has a strong flavour of Somerset Maughm's "Rain")

 

[trex]

...
Running e-bikes with derestriction is often mentioned in here but we must not think it's widespread, that would be a big mistake. It's largely only some of the enthusiasts that do it, peope who occupy forums such as this and the international ES. We are a tiny minority as Frank of Powabyke often reminded us from his long experience of selling them into the mass market.
...
.

there are a lot of e-bikes out there with just LED panel instead of LCD, they do not have cut off speed. Should they all be considered illegal?

 

[anotherkiwi]

DISCLAMER: my last motorcycle was a derestricted 125cc - 33 HP instead of the legal 15HP. Oh yes, it was a KTM Sting .

My pedelec kit build will be 100% street legal which means I will not be mounting the provided thumb throttle - that is illegal here in France unless you are physically handicapped. I don't have the spare cash to pay eventual fines if the police turn the bike over and read 500W on the motor casing...

My 0.02 € on this:

I would like more watts for hill climbing comfort. I don't really care about extra speed. When I was a young man and had a racing bike I was regularly clocked at over 60 km/h coming and going to work (yes on the flat) so I am familiar with speed on a push bike. I don't understand why the minimum is 25 and not 30 km/h which is the city center speed here. I would be much more comfortable if I could go as fast as cars with assist. Maybe bike paths are limited to 25 kph in the flat countries?

Apparently the EU directive is going my direction concerning power and 350 and 500 W motors will be legal on pedelecs in 2017 as long as they are restricted to 25 km/h. Current Bosch and other motors are of course more powerfull than the 250 W that are stamped on the casing. I think that this move is just clearing up ambiguity, but more just likely enabling Bosch and gang to sell the same motor on the US and Canada markets...

Having a throttle would be comfortable too, especially for going to work in my suit in the rain.

Cheers
Tony

 

[JohnCade]

30 kmh would be nicer as a legal cut out it's true. When I had a Woosh it was easy to change the cut out and I put it at that because at 25 kph it was like hitting a wall. But we have what we have and it's no use kicking again the pricks. The Kalkhoff I have now cuts out very smoothly at a bit over 17 mph by using the ten percent leeway in the regs, which isn't that far off the 19 mph of the Woosh. It pedals past the cut off speed very much better than that bike too. So on the few flattish roads around here you can keep up a good speed and dip down into assist as gradient and wind dictates.

 

[flecc]

there are a lot of e-bikes out there with just LED panel instead of LCD, they do not have cut off speed. Should they all be considered illegal?

They haven't been present at all in the mass market that I was speaking of since they are quite recent, and I'm not too sure if they will be in future. They are certainly a tiny minority of the existing e-bikes on UK roads. But if as supplied they don't have a 25 kph cut-off they are certainly illegal.
.

 

[D8ve]

Tony,
As I understand it the power and speed settings were to match an average cyclist who produces in the order of 250 watts and cruses at 25kph.
Much faster than my wife and slower than you.
This means that the assist matches a cyclist and therefore is considered no more dangerous and can be treated as a cyclist. Any more power and it is an electric vehicle

 

[flecc]

I would like more watts for hill climbing comfort. I don't really care about extra speed.

A widely shared sentiment. I firmly believe that the power of a vehicle is a matter for designers and not legislators and it seems the European Parliament agred since they passed a full removal of pedelec power limits proposal to the EU Commission for approval. The Commission rejected it.

When I was a young man and had a racing bike I was regularly clocked at over 60 km/h coming and going to work (yes on the flat) so I am familiar with speed on a push bike. I don't understand why the minimum is 25 and not 30 km/h which is the city center speed here. I would be much more comfortable if I could go as fast as cars with assist. Maybe bike paths are limited to 25 kph in the flat countries?

The reason in each country and later the EU for this common assist restriction limit is a view taken of common utility cycling speeds. The fact is that 25 kph is a generous view of those, most utility cycling is done at lower speeds. The reason for that view is that the legal power assistance was intended for those who need it, not those who very clearly didn't need it as their high speeds indicated. In that respect your mention of commuting on a racing bike says it all.

In the UK the legislators had a more restrictive view and our legislators originally set the assist limit at 12 mph (19 kph). The increase to 15 mph (25kph) came years later as part of efforts at harmonisation with EU law. It seems for that reason the DfT consider they've already made a concession and there will be no more in that direction

Apparently the EU directive is going my direction concerning power and 350 and 500 W motors will be legal on pedelecs in 2017 as long as they are restricted to 25 km/h. Current Bosch and other motors are of course more powerfull than the 250 W that are stamped on the casing. I think that this move is just clearing up ambiguity, but more just likely enabling Bosch and gang to sell the same motor on the US and Canada markets...

The EU's EN15194 test already allows far more than the regulation 250 watts as you rightly say, in effect there's already no limit under 500 watts and virtually every e-bike put onto the roads in the last 15 years has been capable of over 250 watts as supplied.

Do you have any supporting information for this directive? It's the first we've heard about it. If true it will put a spanner in the UKs attempts at harmonisation with EU pedelec law since our DfT has recently set themselves firmly against any power increase.

another Tony