Fast Legal Bike

[flecc]

Tony,
As I understand it the power and speed settings were to match an average cyclist who produces in the order of 250 watts and cruses at 25kph.
Much faster than my wife and slower than you.
This means that the assist matches a cyclist and therefore is considered no more dangerous and can be treated as a cyclist. Any more power and it is an electric vehicle

That's certainly the more recent EU view. The much earlier view often decades ago of various governments in Britain, Europe and Japan before e-bikes were generally present was based on their view of common utility cycling speeds. The Japanese actually regarded that as 15 kph and all cycling over that as sporting (!), and accordingly require the power to phase down continuously above 15 kph and end at 25 kph. The UK originally chose 12 mph as I remarked above. The general view in all those countries has now coalesced around 25 kph (15 mph) and much else of the world has joined with that, including China and Australia.

Since that view has become so widespread, it in effect places an impediment against any one country increasing it.
.

 

[warrah]

Hi everyone. I built the bike in question. Found this thread today and signed up to this site just to answer any questions you might have. Thought i'd save people some of the time and effort spent in speculation. I'll try to address some of the points that have already come up, but if i forget any then please ask.

RE what the point is, or more specifically, if electric scooters/motorbikes do what they do and bicycles do what they do, why hybridise them and get the worst of both worlds? Weight should always be a concern when adding anything to a bicycle. Weight is also a big concern for any electric vehicle, as increased weight results in decreased range. Electric scooters are infact not built with low weight in mind; they are petrol scooters with electric engines, using petrol scooter brakes, frame, wheels that have all been designed to cope with petrol scooter weight. Electric scooters compensate for the decreased range with a larger battery, which itself weighs alot and so results in diminishing returns. The bike i built weighs 46kg, electric scooters weigh twice that. You can pick the bike i built up and carry it into your house. In terms of the legal parts that had to be bolted on (mirrors, indicators, lights, horn), these collectively weigh about about 2kg. The idea behind approaching the road legal Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) from the bicycle direction is therefore about saving weight; meaning you need a smaller battery to get the same range (battery is most expensive part of any electric vehicle, and so electric scooters cost alot of money) , and you can use light bicycle wheels and light downhil bicycle brakes, both of which can cope with a 46kg bike very effectively. The Single Vehicle Approval testers were stunned at the stopping power of Shimano Saint hydraulic brakes when they tested them with their brake testing machine! The tyres on the bike are road legal emarked continental 22" motorcycle tyres rated for much higher weights and speeds. So i suppose what im trying to say is, weight saving is a concern for both cyclists and electric vehicle designers, which is why the two worlds can overlap so effectively. For everyone who sees a heavy bicycle and thinks its an abomination; that is a valid reaction, because that excess weight does make it harder to pedal. But look again, and you can see it is not just a heavy bike, but its also a very very light electric vehicle The downhil bike market is especially good to LEV enthusiasts; these parts are over engineered for abuse and shock, yet are also trying to be as light as possible, which makes them perfect to repurpose for light electric vehicles.

Someone posting on this thread (might have been the original poster) put it well when he said something along the lines of 'different needs require different solutions'. When i started building it, my needs were to build something that could travel 30miles at 30mph on a single charge, and i also wanted to add human power to it with pedals. I wanted to accomplish this legally, because i wasnt willing to look over my sholder for the police all the time (even if nobody has been prosecuted, many people have been given fines for illegal ebikes.)

 

[D8ve]

Well said Warrah.
It was built for a purpose and ends some perpetual arguments on this site about light electric vehicles.
As it is I like it. I don't want one but respect to you for making it.
And it's more than worth the price tag.

 

[warrah]

Gentlemen,let's put aside the legality,the insurance,the morals and face facts,cycling is dangerous and high powered e-bikes are very dangerous,various governments round the world are confused as to how to lower the risk. The 250 watt e-bike still uses brakes,albeit good ones,from a standard bicycle,despite the weight and power being considerably increased,no point upping the braking power because I suspect the tyres would then be the limit. These 1500 watt bikes are not engineered to take that extra power,in fact in many cases the engineering is awful.
China shows us how things will end up,1800 watt e-mopeds,e-scooters,there are now 3000 plus deaths annually with 150 million e-bikes causing hundreds of thousands of accidents....the Chinese cannot make up their minds what to do about it,they clamp down,confiscate the bikes,ban them completely,in Guangzhou there was a riot when the police acted to stop the illegals. Just Google ' fatal electric bike crashes'.....images. Those images are not for the squeamish.
So those who say ,what harm can an illegal bike do,it is there for your own eyes to see.
Companies like KTM are building e-bikes with the best engineering standards and parts to minimise the risks as much as possible.
KudosDave

I hope my previous post has gone some way to allaying any fears people might have about the engineering. The tyres are motorcycle tyres, which are in a completely different league construction wise to bicycle tyres. The brakes passed the MSVA testers test with flying colors and pass every MOT using the same testing equipment they test motorcycles with. If we take the heavier side of standard bicycles to be about 15kgs, as a reference point, then given you are of average healthy weight, the extra 30kgs ive added is within the range of human weight varience bicycle frame manufacterers have accounted for. This does bring up an important point though; you probably should not ride my bike if you weigh much more then 90kgs. Then if we look at the motor itself, then first it must be noted that 1500w is not as crazy as it might first appear; a human is capable of generating more torque and stress on the frame, in bursts of uphill riding, then this motor produces. To be on the safe side, the LEV hobbyists on endless sphere alway advise adding a torque arm to the motor axle, to spread the stress out so the dropouts dont stretch over time. I have put two torque arms, one on each side, for this bike. The axles are 14mm on these motors. There are quite a few specific engineering decisions. You should definitely let me know the details of the structural engineering decisions KTM have made for those ebikes that you also sell for them. Specifically the details you assumed were automatically superior to a DIY build.

RE chinese fatalities with ebikes, this is a serious issue that should be looked into. Im aware that more and more road users in china are using electric bikes, so we would obviously expect a certain portion of all annual road fatalities to be ebike related. Given this, someone would need to do some statistical regression to discover whether ebike related fatalities are disproportionately high in the data? There were 275,000 road fatalities in china last year. Saying there were 3000 ebike related deaths tells us nothing without stastical analysis.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Do you have any supporting information for this directive? It's the first we've heard about it. If true it will put a spanner in the UKs attempts at harmonisation with EU pedelec law since our DfT has recently set themselves firmly against any power increase.

http://www.tweewieler.nl/Global/Whitepapers/bike-europe-whitepaper1.pdf

Part one is very enjoyable reading

EDIT: I jumped from there into French legal requirements. I could present a S pedelec and obtain a number plate in France but... I would have to wear a motorcycle helmet not a bicycle helmet and the speed of the vehicule is limited to 45 km/h NOT the speed of the assitance.

So with a legal pedelec I can use assitance up to 25 km/h and then ride up to 90 km/h (if I am strong enough, the hill steep enough etc) without getting a speeding ticket. If I go over 45 km/h with a S pedelec then I can get a speeding ticket, point off drivers licence etc.

Tony

 

[flecc]

http://www.tweewieler.nl/Global/Whitepapers/bike-europe-whitepaper1.pdf

Part one is very enjoyable reading

EDIT: I jumped from there into French legal requirements. I could present a S pedelec and obtain a number plate in France but... I would have to wear a motorcycle helmet not a bicycle helmet and the speed of the vehicule is limited to 45 km/h NOT the speed of the assitance.

So with a legal pedelec I can use assitance up to 25 km/h and then ride up to 90 km/h (if I am strong enough, the hill steep enough etc) without getting a speeding ticket. If I go over 45 km/h with a S pedelec then I can get a speeding ticket, point off drivers licence etc.

Tony

Yes, as I thought Tony, those are still the old regulations but with some minor changes that I knew about, unregistered pedelecs are still only allowed up to 250 watts and 25 kph.

The only real difference is in classification of the German S class as L1e-A, a moped class. It just makes type approval of the fast pedelecs easier. It will not apply in the UK unless we allows laws to permit it. I guess from what you've said that France intends to permit it from 2017. I don't like the sound of having to have a motorcycle helmet though, I thought the Germans are still able to use a cycle helmet with their S class.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Kudos to you, Warrah. There's loads of people in this world that have closed minds and have little engineering nouse. When something doesn't fit their frame of reference, they assume it's bad. I think you've done an excellent job.

 

[RobF]

Would it fit in a mini skip, or would you need to hire a full size one?

 

[warrah]

Would it fit in a mini skip, or would you need to hire a full size one?

what is a mini skip?

 

[D8ve]

Rob will you retract your last post?

 

[warrah]

oh... you mean like a skip for rubbish :-( i didnt understand the context at first, thought it might be bicycle terminology. I think i'll wrap things up here, i think ive misjudged this forum somewhat, i thought a thread about my bike might appreciate information about it from its maker... but i think its more valuable to people as a 6 page opinion freeforall. I just joined to see if i could help answer any questions, i feel like a right dumbass.

Kudos to you, Warrah. There's loads of people in this world that have closed minds and have little engineering nouse. When something doesn't fit their frame of reference, they assume it's bad. I think you've done an excellent job.

Thanks d8veh, i really appreciate that. I really believe in high powered electric bicycles as a serious transport solution; ive been convinced by all the excellent research, both emperical (real world stress tests) and theoretical (computer modelling by clever engineers) that goes on at the endless-sphere website. I would never defend a position based on personal anecdotal experience, or worse, because im a dealer for a big brand; as a scientist i would be more than willing to follow the evidence where ever it leads, and if it lead to 'bicycles cant take kilowatts of power' then so be it. But steel bicycle frames really can be repurposed for this use. The ductility of steel is an important factor, and aluminium dropouts are a big no no on endless sphere for that reason. Its not all crazy shed builders who care nothing for safety, and anyone whos read through this whole thread and is still curious, please do visit endless-sphere.com for the other side of the story, you can get alot of information from there.

 

[Alan Quay]

Warrah,

Thanks for sharing your project. It's been very interesting to see the engineering that's gone into this bike, the questions it has raised, and the responses generated.

Sadly many discussions here are usurped by (perhaps amateur) lawyers who would rather debate the legalities than the engineering. Ironic, since you have built something unquestionably legal!

Well done for raising your head above the parapet. Perhaps you could pop up more frequently to end tiresome discussions.

Regards,

Mike.

 

[flecc]

Warrah,

Don't misunderstand all the posts on legalities as being criticisms of your achievement. I share the praise for what you've created and welcomed your post since it's only the second time I've known of anyone getting a high speed bike though the moped requirements to make it street legal. I've always known it was possible and first posted as such in here several years ago and a few times since.

This pedelecs forum came into being as mostly a UK legal one and has developed a somewhat schizophrenic character. This leads to repeated obsessions with the legal position being sparked off by bikes not meeting the basic pedelecs laws, exacerbated by the very confused position that the UK has had on pedelec law since 2003. Even the authority, the DfT, has said on more than one occasion since then that they were unable to determine legality on e-bike power and that a court would have to decide it.

This makes it a very different forum from the truly international Endless Sphere, but doesn't mean you shouldn't post in here, we have after all a forum section precisely for contributors like you.

Thanks for your original post in this thread, it's certainly kept the forum lively for six webpages to date!

Tony

 

[warrah]

Warrah,

Don't misunderstand all the posts on legalities as being criticisms of your achievement. I share the praise for what you've created and welcomed your post since it's only the second time I've known of anyone getting a high speed bike though the moped requirements to make it street legal. I've always known it was possible and first posted as such in here several years ago and a few times since.

Tony

Oh dear, sorry if i gave that impression. I love the discussions about legality perticularly, ive learnt loads! My wanting to call it a day in terms of participation and checking back on this thread was because of this post:

Would it fit in a mini skip, or would you need to hire a full size one?

not so much a criticism as just molten nastiness, i dont really have the self esteem to weather that sort of thing. I hope you understand. I never thought of the legal debates as criticism, and i think there is an important place for them, and in the context of what i made it makes total sense to discuss legality

 

[trex]

@warrah. You built this bike in 2012. If you were to build another one for the same purpose (30mph, 30m range), would you use the same components?

 

[D8ve]

Please ignore the childish insults of the few.
And remain to help the positive side of this forum.
My 2d worth is what about wind resistance.
The HPV crowd are clear that +90% of energy is lost in wind resistance.
cd Coefficent of Drag is the standard measurement tool for this parameter.
I would expect Your bike to have a Cd of 1 to 1.2
Basic tuck and fairing could improve that to 0.8
Going to a recumbent would bring the Cd into the sub 0.5 range
Fairings improve the Cd potentially down to 0.2.
and a full velomobile could get the drag beneath 0.12.

What would you expect from the above?
Well at best a ten fold reduction in wind resistance, leaving it at a similar level to rolling resistance. Almost like riding a perminant tail wind?

Some figures for a 1kw drive suggest the following speed ranges.
Normal bike 30
Recumbent 45
Faired. 50
Velomobile 70+
Therefore you could almost double the speed and range of an electric bike by going Bent!

 

[RobF]

This project illustrates what a long way fully electric vehicles have yet to develop before they are usable.

Thirty mph, 30 mile range - I had a Raleigh moped built in the early 60s which would do that.

Well maybe 25mph, and it wasn't so clever in the very wet because the fanbelt drive would slip.

Electric cars are similarly useless, a small hatchback for £20K with a range of 90 miles - if you don't use the heater too much.

Form an orderly queue.

 

[EddiePJ]

not so much a criticism as just molten nastiness, i dont really have the self esteem to weather that sort of thing.

To be honest I don't blame you. Rob F has a habit of p**sing other forum members off. Me being one of them, but thankfully rather than just leaving the forum as I had intended to do, I opted instead to use the ignore function, and now no longer see his posts. Sadly though, it shouldn't be necessary to take that sort of action, or even consider leaving a forum because of one idiot..

Keep posting, as whilst the bike isn't to my taste, I still enjoy the concept of the idea, and admire anyone prepared to get off their backside and give it a go.

 

[trex]

This bike is being offered for sale at the moment, a would be buyer would compare and contrast its features against a new built or ready made before making an offer. From that angle, one could see that this bike, sold as is, has lost much of its appeal except it's road legal. RobF's comment seems harsh but not without reason.

 

[anotherkiwi]

@flecc we aren't reading it the same way:

"All electric bicycles, except pedelecs up to 25 km/h and a maximum continuous rated motor output of 250W, are subject to type-approval. The type-approval rules have been laid down in Regulation 168/2013. Electric bikes are classified in vehicle category L1e, which is subdivided in L1e-A for “powered cycles” and L1e-B for “mopeds”. The type approval rules come into force on January 1, 2017."

I read the directive (... ) and the taking of effect of most of this is in fact 2016!!! Except of course for "Maximum continuous rated and/or vehicle speed limitation by design L1e-A & B Specific anti-tampering requirements for electric motors" which is 2017.

So Bafung et al have untill January 1st 2017 to come up with a tamper proof controller.

Do you think I should have a go and try to bluff my way through with "factory settings limit top speed to 25 km/h" while forgetting to mention that a couple of button presses gives access to top speed settings from the console? "Do you have a manual for the console sir?" Er sorry I forgot it at home...

Tony