Fascism returns to Spain

[Danidl]

Today, the Catalans have declared independence from Spain and the Madrid government will begin steps to enforce their authority over the Catalan region.

Not being Spanish, I find it difficult to get a handle on the rights and wrongs of this matter but it appears to me there is no concession by the government towards a large group of people who wish to be independent of the Madrid government.

What doesn't help is the various statements released by EU officials, clearly picking a side at this early stage of events, thus giving their unconditional backing to the national government. Are the Catalans not EU citizens too?

Because this matter requires considerable diplomacy, something apparently in very short supply in Spain, I tend to agree with the comments of Thomas G Clark, the AAV blogger. You can get his take on matters here:

the-eu-reaction-to-catalonia-crisis-is.html

Tom

Tom the EU came down very clearly on the side of international law. What other position could they have adopted? You either have international law or you have chaos, and might is right. Sending in riot police on the day of the vote was crass, and undiplomatic but the central government has a sworn duty to defend the consitution.
It appears to me that posters from the UK do not appreciate the importance and central role of a written consitution.

 

[Woosh]

there must be a mechanism for Catalans to decide their future.
If not a vote, what is it?

 

[oldtom]

It appears to me that posters from the UK do not appreciate the importance and central role of a written consitution.

As I'm sure you well know 'Danidl', UK citizens do not have the benefit of a written constitution under which their rights and protections are safeguarded but I cannot agree that it necessarily follows that because of that omission, there exists any lack of appreciation for such an instrument.

In Spain at present, there seems to be no provision within their law for any group or sector of the population to express a wish to secede from the whole. For the Spanish government and others to automatically resort to a defence such as international law can never satisfy the desires of those who wish to be regarded as separate. That leaves a festering sore which will not go away. We in these British Isles have witnessed a situation not too different from that faced by the Catalans and we know how damaging it is when people are suppressed by a government they do not recognise, a government that resorts to violence in order to maintain a status quo which can only be supported in the longer-term through continued oppression.

I'm slightly troubled by the fact that the UN apparently sees no need to offer conciliatory discussions with the parties; troubled in the sense that I cannot see the purpose of that organisation if not to provide ACAS-style dispute conciliation. Can we now expect Madrid to proscribe certain political groups in Spain with the likely expressions of discontent and vandalism that such government action normally brings about?......or worse!

Tom

 

[tommie]

We in these British Isles have witnessed a situation not too different from that faced by the Catalans and we know how damaging it is when people are suppressed by a government they do not recognise

Really?

Where? When? How??

 

[mike killay]

I am Welsh, if you ask me my nationality I will say Welsh, if you ask me to sing the National Anthem you will get the Welsh one, not God Save the Queen.
Personally, I do not wish for Welsh independence and I imagine that there are many Scots people who feel the same way about Scotland.
But it is very clear that both Wales and Scotland are nations in their own right.
That is what 'United Kingdom' means.
Catalonia has been a nation for many years with its own language and cultural values.
To me, the Right of Self Determination of a People cannot be ignored because of some words written in a Constitution.
Remember, the time that Catalonia signed up to the present Spanish Constitution was for those people a time of utter turmoil, released from the strictures of Franco's rule, like drowning men they probably seized upon anything that offered peace and stability rather than a return to Civil War.
Now, things are much more stable and peaceful and they wish to re-visit that decision taken at a time of great stress.
Inevitably, they will progress to independence if they wish for it, and to talk about the EU and what is written on a piece of paper is pointless.

 

[flecc]

there must be a mechanism for Catalans to decide their future.
If not a vote, what is it?

The democratic way. Persuasion in the national government chamber as part of a campaign for a change in the constitution that would allow a referendum to follow.

If that's not successful, tough, that's democracy. As so often observed, democracy is a very poor system of governance, but it's better than any of the others.
.

 

[Danidl]

I am Welsh, if you ask me my nationality I will say Welsh, if you ask me to sing the National Anthem you will get the Welsh one, not God Save the Queen.
Personally, I do not wish for Welsh independence and I imagine that there are many Scots people who feel the same way about Scotland.
But it is very clear that both Wales and Scotland are nations in their own right.
That is what 'United Kingdom' means.
Catalonia has been a nation for many years with its own language and cultural values.
To me, the Right of Self Determination of a People cannot be ignored because of some words written in a Constitution.
Remember, the time that Catalonia signed up to the present Spanish Constitution was for those people a time of utter turmoil, released from the strictures of Franco's rule, like drowning men they probably seized upon anything that offered peace and stability rather than a return to Civil War.
Now, things are much more stable and peaceful and they wish to re-visit that decision taken at a time of great stress.
Inevitably, they will progress to independence if they wish for it, and to talk about the EU and what is written on a piece of paper is pointless.

Very little in what you have written do I disagree with. The only point of clarification is that constitution can and do get changed. CHANGES to a constitution are a called amendments.

constitutions are not scripture only suited for study and interpretation.. . That is the role of the judges

They are living documents of the contract between the state and all its citizens. If the constitution is to be changed all the citizens get the chance to vote not just those immediately affected.

The governments in Madrid and also in any and all of the regional parliaments, the police forces, the army and their civil services have all taken oaths of allegiance to defend the constitution.. not to the government so it's not just a piece of paper. It is the fundamental contract.
If the Catalans or any other region wish a changed relationship with the other regions of Spain they need to have a constitutional amendment agreed by the majority in Spain and then run their plebiscite in conformance with law.

 

[mike killay]

Very little in what you have written do I disagree with. The only point of clarification is that constitution can and do get changed. CHANGES to a constitution are a called amendments.

constitutions are not scripture only suited for study and interpretation.. . That is the role of the judges

They are living documents of the contract between the state and all its citizens. If the constitution is to be changed all the citizens get the chance to vote not just those immediately affected.

The governments in Madrid in any and all of the regional parliaments the police forces the army have all taken oaths of allegiance to defend the constitution.. not to the government so it's not just a piece of paper. It is the fundamental contract.
If the Catalans or any other region wish a changed relationship with the other regions of Spain they need to have a constitutional amendment agreed by the majority in Spain and then run their plebiscite in conformance with law.

This is Utopian thinking.
In reality, because Catalonia is rich, the rest of Spain will always veto any desire for independence because money talks.

 

[flecc]

Remember, the time that Catalonia signed up to the present Spanish Constitution was for those people a time of utter turmoil, released from the strictures of Franco's rule, like drowning men they probably seized upon anything that offered peace and stability rather than a return to Civil War.

Spain is prone to strange national decisions, they voted to bring back royalty and install a king, so I don't totally agree with the above.

The fact is that the national constitution was properly voted on by all of Spain. It follows that any change in that constitution must be voted on by all of Spain once the national parliament accept that a vote on constitional change is desirable. All indications are that nationally Spain does not approve of any breakup of the country, and that includes a large proportion of Catalans.

So its probably all pie in the sky even with a legal national vote to change the constitution. That country has made its bed and now has to sleep in it. It's likely only a dictator or civil war could change that. Is Franco mark 2 and a return to civil war really what they'd desire?
.

 

[flecc]

This is Utopian thinking.
In reality, because Catalonia is rich, the rest of Spain will always veto any desire for independence because money talks.

I'm afraid the Utopian thinking is yours Mike, Spain is suffering a defect of democracy which we all have to accept, since we know a Utopian ideal that suits all is impossible.
.

 

[Danidl]

As I'm sure you well know 'Danidl', UK citizens do not have the benefit of a written constitution under which their rights and protections are safeguarded but I cannot agree that it necessarily follows that because of that omission, there exists any lack of appreciation for such an instrument.

In Spain at present, there seems to be no provision within their law for any group or sector of the population to express a wish to secede from the whole. For the Spanish government and others to automatically resort to a defence such as international law can never satisfy the desires of those who wish to be regarded as separate. That leaves a festering sore which will not go away. We in these British Isles have witnessed a situation not too different from that faced by the Catalans and we know how damaging it is when people are suppressed by a government they do not recognise, a government that resorts to violence in order to maintain a status quo which can only be supported in the longer-term through continued oppression.

I'm slightly troubled by the fact that the UN apparently sees no need to offer conciliatory discussions with the parties; troubled in the sense that I cannot see the purpose of that organisation if not to provide ACAS-style dispute conciliation. Can we now expect Madrid to proscribe certain political groups in Spain with the likely expressions of discontent and vandalism that such government action normally brings about?......or worse!

Tom

In respect of the U.N. it does not mediate between disputes between a region and a state. This is precisely the game which the secessionsts in Catalan want outside agencies to adopt. Were they to do so they would de facto be supporting the claim for independence.

The actions of the Madrid government in the weeks ahead will be critical They have a duty to proscribe any organisation which will seek an armed rebellion or who advocate a regional referendum only . They have a duty to defend the right of any who seek to develop a momentum for an all Spain referendum on the constitution. They have duty to allow free association for cultural and historical groups who want to foisted a Catalan identity.

 

[Danidl]

This is Utopian thinking.
In reality, because Catalonia is rich, the rest of Spain will always veto any desire for independence because money talks.

That statement has been made a number of times but it may be more illusionary. 20% of the population and 25% of the GNP is not overwhelming.

 

[Zlatan]

I am Welsh, if you ask me my nationality I will say Welsh, if you ask me to sing the National Anthem you will get the Welsh one, not God Save the Queen.
Personally, I do not wish for Welsh independence and I imagine that there are many Scots people who feel the same way about Scotland.
But it is very clear that both Wales and Scotland are nations in their own right.
That is what 'United Kingdom' means.
Catalonia has been a nation for many years with its own language and cultural values.
To me, the Right of Self Determination of a People cannot be ignored because of some words written in a Constitution.
Remember, the time that Catalonia signed up to the present Spanish Constitution was for those people a time of utter turmoil, released from the strictures of Franco's rule, like drowning men they probably seized upon anything that offered peace and stability rather than a return to Civil War.
Now, things are much more stable and peaceful and they wish to re-visit that decision taken at a time of great stress.
Inevitably, they will progress to independence if they wish for it, and to talk about the EU and what is written on a piece of paper is pointless.

Very good post. Agree entirely.

 

[flecc]

Today, the Catalans have declared independence from Spain and the Madrid government will begin steps to enforce their authority over the Catalan region.

The Catalonians should be getting used to this by now:

Following the surrender of Catalan troops on 11 September 1714, Philip V's enacted the Nueva Planta decrees banning all the main traditional Catalan political institutions and rights and merged its administration into that of the Crown of Castile as a province.
.

 

[Steb]

This is Utopian thinking.
In reality, because Catalonia is rich, the rest of Spain will always veto any desire for independence because money talks.

but is that entirely unreasonable? taken to its logical extreme I can declare my house independent of the uk, not pay any taxes, and rely on the generosity of others to provide my protection, streets, infrastructure. or London could vote for independence from the uk (it would be much better off for it). isn't there a rationale for insisting on more interdependence? that Catalan owes Spain more of an allegiance and cant just separate for feeling flush and not wanting the burden of poorer Spanish communities?

 

[anotherkiwi]

This is Utopian thinking.
In reality, because Catalonia is rich, the rest of Spain will always veto any desire for independence because money talks.

Correction: was rich, 1,600 businesses have already moved their headquarters out of Catalonia. They still have Cava and tourism though

 

[anotherkiwi]

The Catalonians should be getting used to this by now:

Following the surrender of Catalan troops on 11 September 1714, Philip V's enacted the Nueva Planta decrees banning all the main traditional Catalan political institutions and rights and merged its administration into that of the Crown of Castile as a province.
.

Over 300 years ago Catalonia ceased to exist as a nation. Anarchist and communist opposition to the rising fascist movement suggested rebirth of a nation in 1931. The constitution dates from 1978. These are important dates to put what is happening now in perspective.

The Basques and the Navarrese got a better deal in the 1978 constitution because of continued armed resistance to the Franco government. Catalonia did not fight Madrid over those years.

That statement has been made a number of times but it may be more illusionary. 20% of the population and 25% of the GNP is not overwhelming.

And of that population well over 50% are migrants from other regions of Spain who came looking for jobs...

 

[topographer]

Most E.U. nations recognise Kosovo's U.D.I. The E.U. rewarded Kosovo for its U.D.I. by sending them thousands of police and judicial personnel to help with the 'rule of law'. The precedent has been set. The European Union, like another United States elsewhere will do whatever it wants. It doesn't care about laws, conventions and constitutions when it doesn't suit it.

Then there's Montenegro. Italy secretly offered her several billion dollars if she would secede from Serbia...and she did, after negotiating a speedbump. Imagine if France offered Bavaria massive amounts of money to secede from Germany and become a separate nation. Germany would be apoplectic.

 

[Zlatan]

Most E.U. nations recognise Kosovo's U.D.I. The E.U. rewarded Kosovo for its U.D.I. by sending them thousands of police and judicial personnel to help with the 'rule of law'. The precedent has been set. The European Union, like another United States elsewhere will do whatever it wants. It doesn't care about laws, conventions and constitutions when it doesn't suit it.

Then there's Montenegro. Italy secretly offered her several billion dollars if she would secede from Serbia...and she did, after negotiating a speedbump. Imagine if France offered Bavaria massive amounts of money to secede from Germany and become a separate nation. Germany would be apoplectic.

Good post.

 

[flecc]

Most E.U. nations recognise Kosovo's U.D.I. The E.U. rewarded Kosovo for its U.D.I. by sending them thousands of police and judicial personnel to help with the 'rule of law'. The precedent has been set. The European Union, like another United States elsewhere will do whatever it wants. It doesn't care about laws, conventions and constitutions when it doesn't suit it.

Recognising Kosovo's UDI was only to avoid a never ending conflict resuting from the ill judged events of 1922 and 1940/41. And it was not only the EU recognising it.

On 17 February 2008, Kosovo unilaterally declared its independence from Serbia. It has since gained diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state by 111 UN member states. Serbia refuses to recognize Kosovo as a state, although with the Brussels Agreement of 2013, it has accepted the legitimacy of its institutions.
.