Fascism returns to Spain

[oldtom]

Great Scot!.....Well, two of them actually:

"The socialism I believe in, is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life."

- Bill Shankly



Good coaches and born into socialism. If only Fergie would send back his knighthood and tell them it doesn't fit!

Tom

 

[mike killay]

A few hundred! I had to quote this separately since it was so funny.

London received 19 million visitors last year, many of whom stayed for a number of days. That's nearly a third of the UK population and an average of 52,000 new visitors a day, and you can add all the business people and others unrecorded coming in.
.

Not so easy when you want to stay in a particular part of London.
But my point was that when choosing a venue, London is so easy, everybody can easily get there, even from remote Scottish islands, IOM, NI etc.
But for many, the sheer size of London is intimidating and to offer an Hotel miles from the venue and an expensive taxi ride away is not so simple.
By the way, I have never really managed to understand the Docklands light railway, have absolutely no idea what an oyster card is, and generally have travelled free because of the lack of help.
The DART on the other hand is simple and easy to understand and pay for.

 

[Danidl]

Not so easy when you want to stay in a particular part of London.
But my point was that when choosing a venue, London is so easy, everybody can easily get there, even from remote Scottish islands, IOM, NI etc.
But for many, the sheer size of London is intimidating and to offer an Hotel miles from the venue and an expensive taxi ride away is not so simple.
By the way, I have never really managed to understand the Docklands light railway, have absolutely no idea what an oyster card is, and generally have travelled free because of the lack of help.
The DART on the other hand is simple and easy to understand and pay for.

DART??

 

[mike killay]

Anyway, back to Spain.
I have been rather shocked speaking to the only two Spaniards that I know, now resident in Wales.
Not only are they opposed to Catalonian independence, but they supported the CG attacks on voters.
Their view is that the referendum was illegal and subversive, therefore all the voters were criminals and needed to be taught a lesson.
I guess that we make the mistake of projecting our values onto other people.
Their view is that the Gardia Civil are the glue that is necessary to hold Spain together.
Obviously, among the older generations, memories of the Civil War remain, and even if too young to have been around at the time, the post war values are well embedded in them, and fear of those times ever returning allow them to the view the weekends excesses favourably.
Tom,
Next time you are in Spain, it might be helpful to explore these matters with your Spanish friends and let us know if they are a true reflection of Spanish attitudes, or the aberrations of ex-pat Spaniards.
Mike.
Ps. The actions of the CG seemed to me repressive, and I heard on a live leak the crowd were shouting 'Franco'
So, my opinion is that anti democratic Fascism is present in Spain.
To me, the right of a peoples to self determination is paramount ( I once was a Welsh Republican)

 

[mike killay]

DART??

Dublin Area Rapid Transit

 

[flecc]

have absolutely no idea what an oyster card is,

Its just a contactless card that contains cash value that gets deducted as you use it. You get a card from many outlets or online and add value to it at the same outlets as it's needed, or you can have it top itself up from your bank etc as needed, up to a level you set.

Simple, easy to use and trouble free for travel on on buses, trams, underground etc.

The young up to 16 (or 18 if in full time education) and the elderly don't need to pay, travel is free for them.
.

 

[flecc]

I have been rather shocked speaking to the only two Spaniards that I know, now resident in Wales.
Not only are they opposed to Catalonian independence, but they supported the CG attacks on voters.
Their view is that the referendum was illegal and subversive, therefore all the voters were criminals and needed to be taught a lesson.

That's very much my view, and why I expressed those organising the referendum as being guilty of treason.

For what they desire they should use the democratic processes. If they then still can't achieve what they want that way, either accept that democratic outcome or emigrate to somewhere else.
.

 

[oldtom]

the elderly don't need to pay, travel is free for them.

It broke my heart to have to give up my 'London Freedom Pass' on moving away from a London borough. It's a valuable concession and long may it continue.

Tom

ps Worst move I ever made!

 

[Danidl]

Dublin Area Rapid Transit

Yeah that was what I was hoping it was... We now has luas and it is finally integrated so that it links both North and south of the city and the same smart card works on all three , the dart (trains ), the luas (trams) and buses

 

[Danidl]

Its just a contactless card that contains cash value that gets deducted as you use it. You get a card from many outlets or online and add value to it at the same outlets as it's needed, or you can have it top itself up from your bank etc as needed, up to a level you set.

The Dublin version is called a leap card

Simple, easy to use and trouble free for travel on on buses, trams, underground etc.

The young up to 16 (or 18 if in full time education) and the elderly don't need to pay, travel is free for them.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Mine is called Mugi and it gets me on trains and busses in Guipúzcoa.

 

[Zlatan]

Don't agree with any type of marches or protests..folk in them seem to think their vote or knowledge of situation is greater than those not protesting...For example the Fracking protesters blocking roads etc. I happen to agree with Fracking so shall I go out and start a counter road block...but then again I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses selling their views when I,m cleaning my car...if they want to do some good in world there are better places to start than my drive...but I don't think they should be battered with rubber projectiles either.
The Spanish Government have converted protesters into terrorists. We will all be appalled when some atrocity takes place and the Catalans claim responsibility...in their retaliation at the hands of GC..
To be fair this scenario has been building a while,I,m just surprised the Catalans north of Pyrenees are ( in theory) not involved...
I used term rubber projectiles because describing them as bullets is wrong. A bullet brings to mind a half inch diameter slug of some sort. Rubber bullets are 2inch diameter and 6 inch long...

 

[Woosh]

question for you: should the UK recognize Caltalonia's UDI next week?
I don't think we should because of the low turnout but what do you think?

 

[flecc]

question for you: should the UK recognize Caltalonia's UDI next week?
I don't think we should because of the low turnout but what do you think?

Regardless of the size of the turnout, how can we?

We refuse the recognise the Crimean referendum despite it's over 90% Russian population all voting to return to Russia from Ukraine. We refuse to recognise Abkhazia despite their overwhelming desire for previously leaving Russia for independence.

Those two surely prevent us recognising any attempt to depart from a sovereign nation. We can't make the rules only on the basis of whether we like a country or not.
.

 

[Danidl]

Don't agree with any type of marches or protests..folk in them seem to think their vote or knowledge of situation is greater than those not protesting...For example the Fracking protesters blocking roads etc. I happen to agree with Fracking so shall I go out and start a counter road block...but then again I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses selling their views when I,m cleaning my car...if they want to do some good in world there are better places to start than my drive...but I don't think they should be battered with rubber projectiles either.
The Spanish Government have converted protesters into terrorists. We will all be appalled when some atrocity takes place and the Catalans claim responsibility...in their retaliation at the hands of GC..
To be fair this scenario has been building a while,I,m just surprised the Catalans north of Pyrenees are ( in theory) not involved...
I used term rubber projectiles because describing them as bullets is wrong. A bullet brings to mind a half inch diameter slug of some sort. Rubber bullets are 2inch diameter and 6 inch long...

"The Spanish Government have converted protesters into terrorists. We will all be appalled when some atrocity takes place and the Catalans claim responsibility...in their retaliation at the hands of GC.. "
The police actions turned a protest vote into protestors, and very likely incited numbers of uncommitted Catalans to cast their lot towards secession. Make no mistake, this was the intended consequence by the organisers of this event. For their part, they are probably regretting that there were not a few fatalities to add to the hall of martyrs. It was a folly by the central authority in Madrid, to play into their hands that way.

 

[mike killay]

question for you: should the UK recognize Caltalonia's UDI next week?
I don't think we should because of the low turnout but what do you think?

I don't think that the turnout is relevant.
It is a matter of international diplomacy and that is an entirely different thing.
We cannot recognise them.

 

[oldtom]

I don't know whether the UK should recognise a breakaway region of Catalonia as we can only speculate about the delineation of any new state boundaries, plus there is the question of whether part of France would form part of the new State? Would the French government really allow part of their territory to be hived off? Indeed, would Spain?

There are some big questions to be considered but borders have changed many times between many countries over the centuries, so we can only guess at the future status of the Catalonian area until something significant occurs which perhaps changes the status quo.

Civil war tends to break out frequently when the peoples of specific geographical areas disagree on any of a whole raft of possible reasons. Given our own history from the Wars of the Roses in the 1400s and the English Civil war of the mid 17th century, we shouldn't allow ourselves to be too judgemental as we sit and watch the goings on in Spain from the comfort of our armchairs. Even the border between Scotland and England moved around many times over the years and that between France and Germany was also flexible over the centuries, particularly the Alsace-Lorraine border territory which figured highly among many reasons for the Franco-Prussian war.

I sincerely hope the situation in Spain does not degenerate into a bloody civil conflict but I do think it is a worry at the present time.

Thinking back, I was never quite clear whether or not the UK government recognised Rhodesia after Smith declared UDI in the 1960s. I know there was confusion because we recognised Southern Rhodesia as a de facto British colony but Ian Smith's UDI referred to Rhodesia so I think there was a bit of a falling-out over that and I don't remember the upshot of it all.

It's all water under the bridge now as the ruthless Mugabe has endured long beyond everyone's expectations as all-powerful leader of his nation, now indeed President.

Tom

 

[flecc]

Thinking back, I was never quite clear whether or not the UK government recognised Rhodesia after Smith declared UDI in the 1960s. I know there was confusion because we recognised Southern Rhodesia as a de facto British colony but Ian Smith's UDI referred to Rhodesia so I think there was a bit of a falling-out over that and I don't remember the upshot of it all.

I think the name change of the whole to Zimbabwe neatly disposed of that potential past problem!
.

 

[oldtom]

There's a very strong criticism of King Felipe by Thomas Clark, the Yorkshire blogger on his AAV page. These images give some insight:





Here is the link to his full piece:

king-felipes-hypocritical-and-cowardly.html

Tom

 

[mike killay]

[QUOTE="oldtom, post: 401521, we shouldn't allow ourselves to be too judgemental as we sit and watch the goings on in Spain from the comfort of our armchairs

I sincerely hope the situation in Spain does not degenerate into a bloody civil conflict but I do think it is a worry at the present time.



Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom,
I do support the right of a people to self determination, and the EU response to the referendum falls far short of what I would like to see.
The obvious way forward is for Madrid to acknowledge that there is a demand for independence and to organise a proper referendum under EU supervision to determine the real will of the Catalonian people.
And to accept the result.