EU ICE ban postponed indefinetly.

[Zlatan]

What's going on?
Where does it leave our proposed ban?
What about JLR stopping ICE production 2025??
Reasoning explained here.

Why the 2035 combustion engine ban is the wrong way to go - Euractiv

Electrification is a worthy goal, and the EU owes it to its citizens not to proceed recklessly by putting the cart before the horse. If it does, it will ultimately harm both European consumers and the Union as a whole.

www.euractiv.com

 

[Zlatan]

Can't believe not more has been made of this, in here to some extent, but more so on media in general. Read it early this morning on FT notifications. Not seen it anywhere else.
It's massive,unless FT have got it wrong??

 

[flecc]

Can't believe not more has been made of this, in here to some extent, but more so on media in general. Read it early this morning on FT notifications. Not seen it anywhere else.
It's massive,unless FT have got it wrong??

View attachment 50633

It's not been widely reported since it isn't big news, since the EU cannot rule on this anyway. Each country can do their own thing and all have commitments to net zero by 2050, some/most certainly will not change their ban. Nor will Britain.

I'm pleased to see their agreement with me that there will not be any low cost e-cars and batteries and that consumers will not be able to afford them, meaning less car ownership.

It's Germany once again anyway, often out of step with the rest of the bloc.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Think you might be oversimplifying and downplaying situation somewhat flecc.

Why the 2035 combustion engine ban is the wrong way to go - Euractiv

Electrification is a worthy goal, and the EU owes it to its citizens not to proceed recklessly by putting the cart before the horse. If it does, it will ultimately harm both European consumers and the Union as a whole.

www.euractiv.com

There are far more countries and arguments to delay/postpone/cancel ban than you suggest.
There are many facets to arguments as cleay expressed in link.

 

[flecc]

Think you might be oversimplifying and downplaying situation somewhat flecc.

Why the 2035 combustion engine ban is the wrong way to go - Euractiv

Electrification is a worthy goal, and the EU owes it to its citizens not to proceed recklessly by putting the cart before the horse. If it does, it will ultimately harm both European consumers and the Union as a whole.

www.euractiv.com

There are far more countries and arguments to delay/postpone/cancel ban than you suggest.
There are many facets to arguments as cleay expressed in link.

Not at all. Germany is so often out of step, the other member countries are used to it. You only have to note the way Germany has for decades advocated making friends withRussia, continuing that even now, which is why they were so reluctant to release the Leopard tanks.

As for the many other facets of the argument, that article contains a lot of unbalanced exaggeration.

All that matters is that worldwide big business and governments have made huge investments in the switch to EV and they are not going to scrap and lose all that just because Germany is throwing another hissy fit.

That is why it was only the FT who were at all interested, the rest of the media knowing it was inconsequential.
.

 

[soundwave]

 

[Zlatan]

Not at all. Germany is so often out of step, the other member countries are used to it. You only have to note the way Germany has for decades advocated making friends withRussia, continuing that even now, which is why they were so reluctant to release the Leopard tanks.

As for the many other facets of the argument, that article contains a lot of unbalanced exaggeration.

All that matters is that worldwide big business and governments have made huge investments in the switch to EV and they are not going to scrap and lose all that just because Germany is throwing another hissy fit.

That is why it was only the FT who were at all interested, the rest of the media knowing it was inconsequential.
.

I don't think there is any desire anywhere to do a U turn with regards electrification, just a realisation that forcing it with
legislation is both not the best way to achieve it and very damaging in other areas if correct planning isn't in place. Attempting to mitigate the obvious damage to many industries and economies having such a deadline would cause. I, ve always thought there are better ways to achieve those same goals. Essentially making the switch desirable, cost effective and attractive rather than legislation enforcing the change,which people will, and already are doing, rebel against.
We'll see. I suspect ramifications from this postponement. Time will tell.
And BTW flecc, Italy, Poland Slovakia and Slovenia are also against the ban. (The vote was only just carried 10 days or so ago, but since then things seem to have changed)

 

[flecc]

Italy, Poland Slovakia and Slovenia are also against the ban.

. Of course they are, they all produce ICE cars and are backward on EVs !

As I posted what the EU decides doesn't matter, current plans to switch will go ahead. Many makers are far advanced with their plans, it's not only JLR who are stopping IC manufacture earlier than 2030 and Ford Europe have said they won't produce any ICE after 2030. They aren't going to wait a further decade or two to get their investenent back, nor will the banks.

And if all the European countries scrapped their bans it would be the death of COP and the 2050 target.
.

 

[Zlatan]

. Of course they are, they all produce ICE cars and are backward on EVs !

As I posted what the EU decides doesn't matter, current plans to switch will go ahead. Many makers are far advanced with their plans, it's not only JLR who are stopping IC manufacture earlier than 2030 and Ford Europe have said they won't produce any ICE after 2030. They aren't going to wait a further decade or two to get their investenent back, nor will the banks.

And if all the European countries scrapped their bans it would be the death of COP and the 2050 target.
.

But those decisions were made in the light of an impending ban, they go early to get a head start on the competition. If the ban changes, is delayed, cancelled their goals may not change but how they get there could.
I think you, ll find current thinking is
A) To reword ban from banning ICE to saying compulsory zero emissions (or a %age there of,perhaps 90%)
B)The ban shouldn't stifle and decide the technology. (as it does at moment) but rather politicians should set the standards and let engineers decide how to get there. That could mean no change whatsoever (ie total electrification) or it could mean achieving those goals via some other method. (possibly even a as yet unseen solution)
This is much more along lines of Japan's approach.
I don't think anyone wants to either delay or change the end goals or time scales. But EU (or countries) should not be letting politicians decide the technology.
(eg, its entirely feasible to produce zero (net) emissions via drop in Fuels, but at moment they still produce other pollutants (Nox), if that could be stopped there is no reason for their banning, but under EU legislation as is they would be banned. (zero emissions at exhaust) Both Porsche and Ferrari see this as problematic, and hence lobbying for change). Porsche are already planning on offering 911 with ICE into indefinite future. They must be confident of some changes, either at Government or EU level.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/mazda-europe-boss-2035-ice-ban-is-a-disgrace-of-the politicians/278089

Germany’s effort to save the combustion engine gains allies

Berlin is blocking the final approval of a measure ending the sale of polluting cars, and other countries may be getting on board.

www.politico.eu

 

[flecc]

But those decisions were made in the light of an impending ban, they go early to get a head start on the competition. If the ban changes, is delayed, cancelled their goals may not change but how they get there could.
I think you, ll find current thinking is
A) To reword ban from banning ICE to saying compulsory zero emissions (or a %age there of,perhaps 90%)
B)The ban shouldn't stifle and decide the technology. (as it does at moment) but rather politicians should set the standards and let engineers decide how to get there. That could mean no change whatsoever (ie total electrification) or it could mean achieving those goals via some other method. (possibly even a as yet unseen solution)
This is much more along lines of Japan's approach.
I don't think anyone wants to either delay or change the end goals or time scales. But EU (or countries) should not be letting politicians decide the technology.
(eg, its entirely feasible to produce zero (net) emissions via drop in Fuels, but at moment they still produce other pollutants (Nox), if that could be stopped there is no reason for their banning, but under EU legislation as is they would be banned. (zero emissions at exhaust) Both Porsche and Ferrari see this as problematic, and hence lobbying for change). Porsche are already planning on offering 911 with ICE into indefinite future. They must be confident of some changes, either at Government or EU level.

Mazda Europe boss: 2035 ICE ban is ‘a disgrace of the politicians’ – Car Dealer Magazine

Mazda Europe’s CEO Martijn ten Brink has lambasted the European Union’s 2035 ban on internal combustion engined vehicles – describing its implementation

cardealermagazine.co.uk

Don't forget this is a 2035 ban on ICE engines and there are many earlier national bans such as 2025 in Norway and partially in 2030 for Britain and others.

So the EU change if it happens won't have any effect until 2035, by which time production of ICE will have sharply fallen anyway as the market disappears.

I imagine a very high proportion of Porsche 911 sales are overseas anyway where there will be many places able to buy them.

I've done a Google search and it seems the FT is out on a limb, no-one else is discussing this.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Don't forget this is a 2035 ban on ICE engines and there are many earlier national bans such as 2025 in Norway and partially in 2030 for Britain and others.

So the EU change if it happens won't have any effect until 2035, by which time production of ICE will have sharply fallen anyway as the market disappears.

I imagine a very high proportion of Porsche 911 sales are overseas anyway where there will be many places able to buy them.

I've done a Google search and it seems the FT is out on a limb, no-one else is discussing this.
.

Agreed on that. I can't find a single report substantiating FT.?? Very odd.
All others are reports, conjecture and opinions.

 

[soundwave]

pmsl

 

[Danidl]

But those decisions were made in the light of an impending ban, they go early to get a head start on the competition. If the ban changes, is delayed, cancelled their goals may not change but how they get there could.
I think you, ll find current thinking is
A) To reword ban from banning ICE to saying compulsory zero emissions (or a %age there of,perhaps 90%)
B)The ban shouldn't stifle and decide the technology. (as it does at moment) but rather politicians should set the standards and let engineers decide how to get there. That could mean no change whatsoever (ie total electrification) or it could mean achieving those goals via some other method. (possibly even a as yet unseen solution)
This is much more along lines of Japan's approach.
I don't think anyone wants to either delay or change the end goals or time scales. But EU (or countries) should not be letting politicians decide the technology.
(eg, its entirely feasible to produce zero (net) emissions via drop in Fuels, but at moment they still produce other pollutants (Nox), if that could be stopped there is no reason for their banning, but under EU legislation as is they would be banned. (zero emissions at exhaust) Both Porsche and Ferrari see this as problematic, and hence lobbying for change). Porsche are already planning on offering 911 with ICE into indefinite future. They must be confident of some changes, either at Government or EU level.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/mazda-europe-boss-2035-ice-ban-is-a-disgrace-of-the politicians/278089

Germany’s effort to save the combustion engine gains allies

Berlin is blocking the final approval of a measure ending the sale of polluting cars, and other countries may be getting on board.

www.politico.eu

While I haven't as yet made the leap into buying an EV, I am thinking that the Japanese approach by Nissan and Toyota has a soundness. And that simplistic bans are just simplistic.. They recognise that the world will not be able to go fully electric in one fell swoop, and there will be laggards and front runners. The Nissan approach is to use electrical motors to power the wheels for all vehicles and use some variation of pure electric battery or small battery and ICE charger in hybrid to power that motor. Of course they are running down their inventories of , the older mechanical plus electric motor arrangement. The Toyota is slightly more old school .. their tried mechanical Prius hybrid and now hydrogen fuel cells and pure electric battery. Ultimately all cars will have electric motor power to the wheels.,but where that power comes from is the question.
To an extent , this debate reminds me of the Incandescent bulb ban which never happened. Just getting enough people worked up over it had the advantage of promoting LEDs and CFLs , without a need to carry through

 

[soundwave]

my £50 led light bulb is still going from 2012

https://www.desertcart.co.uk/products/65502789-nanoleaf-one-white?gclid=Cj0KCQiApKagBhC1ARIsAFc7Mc5HfjsiiNusf-00bcXVkvuY3JK43ekBkQSdfZQKrWPjBgAeS5KnJRwaAr-lEALw_wcB

 

[flecc]

I am thinking that the Japanese approach by Nissan and Toyota has a soundness. And that simplistic bans are just simplistic.. They recognise that the world will not be able to go fully electric in one fell swoop, and there will be laggards and front runners. The Nissan approach is to use electrical motors to power the wheels for all vehicles and use some variation of pure electric battery or small battery and ICE charger in hybrid to power that motor. Of course they are running down their inventories of , the older mechanical plus electric motor arrangement. The Toyota is slightly more old school .. their tried mechanical Prius hybrid and now hydrogen fuel cells and pure electric battery. Ultimately all cars will have electric motor power to the wheels.,but where that power comes from is the question.
To an extent , this debate reminds me of the Incandescent bulb ban which never happened. Just getting enough people worked up over it had the advantage of promoting LEDs and CFLs , without a need to carry through

It's more Toyota and Honda who are being cautious, being wary about the Chinese position with the essential minerals so not taking the full plunge into battery power. It's why Toyota are clinging onto their "self charging hybrid" concept for new models which Honda also have and which also works well with NiMh batteries. And of course Toyota have a very strong ICE market position in the third world where EV will be a very long way off yet.

Nissan and partner Renault have pretty much taken the plunge into lithium batteries, albeit both with some back-tracking into hybrids using them.
.

 

[soundwave]

i still think a conversion is the best way to go as then you can spec the size batt to the car you want have full control over it controller wise and be able to replace the batts in 5-10 years time.

Electric Classic Cars | The World's Largest Converter of Classic Cars

Welcome to Electric Classic Cars™, the world's largest converter of classic cars to electric.

www.electricclassiccars.co.uk

1250x4 motors.
1250bhp 2 of those on the rear wheels should be enough to pop down tesco or use them for a weapon motor on a battle bot

like the motor on my bike if it wont work with the new smart batts then it is a boat anchor and done on purpose as planned obsolescence and they will do the same to ev production cars and tracked and traced 247 and the subscription fees to go with it or no warm ass for you and 20mph speed limit everywhere

 

[soundwave]

evs euro news.

 

[Danidl]

i still think a conversion is the best way to go as then you can spec the size batt to the car you want have full control over it controller wise and be able to replace the batts in 5-10 years time.

Electric Classic Cars | The World's Largest Converter of Classic Cars

Welcome to Electric Classic Cars™, the world's largest converter of classic cars to electric.

www.electricclassiccars.co.uk

View attachment 50638
View attachment 50639
1250x4 motors.
1250bhp 2 of those on the rear wheels should be enough to pop down tesco or use them for a weapon motor on a battle bot

like the motor on my bike if it wont work with the new smart batts then it is a boat anchor and done on purpose as planned obsolescence and they will do the same to ev production cars and tracked and traced 247 and the subscription fees to go with it or no warm ass for you and 20mph speed limit everywhere

Doing an electric motor conversation is a hobbyist / enthusiast thing, and utterly non economic to do..Like making a hovercraft...

 

[soundwave]

they will do the work for you lol and they must make money out of it

 

[Zlatan]

Caravan parks 'can't cope' with rising numbers of electric cars

Holiday parks warn they cannot install enough electric charging points to cope with rising demand.

www.bbc.com

Perhaps an unseen consequence. Sorts itself out in end, EVs generally can't tow caravans but the statics??
Mobile generators on back of pick ups...??
There's a fortune to be made.

Couple of these in boot??

ZipCharge: portable EV charger and flexible hubs planned for 2023 | DrivingElectric

Going on sale in 2023, the suitcase-sized ZipCharge Go portable charger can add about 20 miles of range to typical EV in around 30 minutes

www.drivingelectric.com

And charging at airports is to say the least difficult.

Which UK airports have EV Charging Stations?

Our handy guide shows you which UK airports currently have EV charging stations and if they don't, where to find your nearest.

www.airport-parking-shop.co.uk

Putting some numbers on last point. You can park around 160 cars on 1 acre off land. There is room for approx 5,000 cars on site at East Midlands,with satellite parking scattered around trebling this figure? They don't have any on site chargers. Nearest is at Marriot Hotel. A single 22kw.??
It's ridiculous to say we have planned and invested for the changeover.