EBMA files an anti dumping complaint on chinese e-bikes.

[anotherkiwi]

Except the 'Spanish' e-bikes are often fully manufactured and assembled in Shanghai....I have a pile of EN 15194 certificates that are from a very well known Spanish e-bike supplier that are from SFS Shanghai.
We cannot assemble a bike for 50 dollars like they do in China and the U.K consumer demands product as cheap as possible,sadly 'made in the U.K.' has no price cache.
I have some of the Kudos bikes made in Tianjin,the manufacturer is an expert at making frames and seats,I was shown around the factory and there are piles of frames on pallets with well known Austrian and German ID labels,some even have labels in German!!!!
This manufacturer produces some wonderful product,the quality of their welding and the heat treatment facilities are expertly controlled. They make some beautiful sports bikes,with high end spec (D2 electronic gearing) but the anti dumping duty makes it uneconomic to import to the UK.....maybe post Brexit if the anti dumping duty is eliminated it may be attractive to import to the UK?
KudosDave

There is an article somewhere saying that the top three in the Tour de France in 2012 rode three different brands and all three frames came from the same factory in China...

"Orbea designs and builds bicycles, with some of the higher-cost bikes being made in Portugal but all the others made at the Orbea factory in Mallabia"

I chose Orbea on purpose, the factory is 75 km from here.

My point is that you can make e-bikes in Europe and they can be competitively priced on the market.

 

[Kudoscycles]

There is an article somewhere saying that the top three in the Tour de France in 2012 rode three different brands and all three frames came from the same factory in China...

"Orbea designs and builds bicycles, with some of the higher-cost bikes being made in Portugal but all the others made at the Orbea factory in Mallabia"

I chose Orbea on purpose, the factory is 75 km from here.

My point is that you can make e-bikes in Europe and they can be competitively priced on the market.

Batribike tried to build e-bikes in the UK....to my knowledge it was not a success ,the bikes were ok but IMHO opinion £500 too much,they reduced the price from £1700 to £1200. The bike was not dissimilar to my Kudos mountain style bike.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

IMHO opinion £500 too much,they reduced the price from £1700 to £1200.

I don't think assembling e-bikes in the UK would add more than £50-£75 to a bike. All the parts, except the frame, would attract less duty on import to start with. The alloy frame accounts for about £35, anti-dumping levy on the frame is not that significant. If Batribike cut £500 off their price then it's more to do with commercial pressure than production cost.
The biggest problem I can see with assembling bikes in the UK is the seasonal nature of the e-bike business. We sell more than twice as many bikes in the summer months compared to winter months.
If we run our own assembly, we'd need to warehouse the bikes for 6-9 months on average and the cost of premises is very high in the UK.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I don't think assembling e-bikes in the UK would add more than £50-£75 to a bike. All the parts, except the frame, would attract less duty on import to start with. The alloy frame accounts for about £35, anti-dumping levy on the frame is not that significant. If Batribike cut £500 off their price then it's more to do with commercial pressure than production cost.
The biggest problem I can see with assembling bikes in the UK is the seasonal nature of the e-bike business. We sell more than twice as many bikes in the summer months compared to winter months.
If we run our own assembly, we'd need to warehouse the bikes for 6-9 months on average and the cost of premises is very high in the UK.

Go for it,it will be a pleasure to see it a success... The biggest problem I see is part sourcing.....the Chinese have constant parts supply problems,this is made worse by the Chinese government closing polluting factories to try to improve their pollution problems. Recently they shut for 2 months all plating companies in vulnerable regions,try building a bike without plated parts!!!
You only need one part not available to stop production.
The Chinese are in constant communication to overcome these delays,they talk to each other to stockpile parts and look for alternatives....this is why the Chinese are constantly changing specs.
A UK builder would have big problems sourcing continuity of parts.
At least you could legitametly put a Union Jack on the bikes,hehe,old story amongst Pedelec.
KudosDave

 

[topographer]

Does the Chinese government pay subsidies to its bike manufacturers?

 

[Woosh]

At least you could legitametly put a Union Jack on the bikes,hehe,old story amongst Pedelec.

perhaps but probably not 'made in the UK' - the UK contents is tiny, about 5 hours of labour.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

perhaps but probably not 'made in the UK' - the UK contents is tiny, about 5 hours of labour.

You can. KTM have a "Made in Austria" sticker on them, we had to go though a lot of hoops to get it, and prove the bicycle is made in Austria... which it is. The parts of the bicycle come from all over the world, as indeed do the staff in Austria.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I agree Mike, losing China will certainly damage the industry. The European manufacturers simply don’t like the competition. The Chinese built and expanded the market now the European manufacturers want it for themselves.

Here is one remainer rapidly turning into a leaver!

Don't forget that the EU isn't some foreign entity David... we are part of it. So this decision will be made by the EU with us involved. If / when we do leave you might find the UK was the strongest voice calling for it, or indeed that the UK wanted a higher duty to encourage UK brands to grow.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Does the Chinese government pay subsidies to its bike manufacturers?

I have purchased from China for 15 years,I now have 130 plus suppliers,the Chinese love whisky and often open up over a bottle of Johnnie Walker(ganbei!) but without exception they ask me not to repeat what they have revealed.
So I will honour their requests,it is a question you will have to ask elsewhere....just to say the Chinese economic miracle is driven from the top.
Sorry,I am normally open but not in these matters.
KudosDave

 

[topographer]

just to say the Chinese economic miracle is driven from the top

I knew that. The Chinese have a deterministic rather than empiricist approach to economics and business. And I've heard similar things about the Chinese method of dominating the solar panel industry. I just don't know the specific methods they use. I think batteries is one of their next targets.

The logical response from the West would be to become more deterministic themselves instead of being so pedantic about free markets. The Chinese know that mixing free markets with top down planning in the right way is a killer combo. If the Chinese are subsidising then it isn't wrong for the E.U. to introduce tariffs. It's just perverse to do so while extolling hands-off free market globalism.

 

[tommie]

and prove the bicycle is made in Austria... which it is.

`made`??

you really mean `assembled` ?

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Don't forget that the EU isn't some foreign entity David... we are part of it. So this decision will be made by the EU with us involved. If / when we do leave you might find the UK was the strongest voice calling for it, or indeed that the UK wanted a higher duty to encourage UK brands to grow.

Maybe Col, but I wonder how many UK bike manufacturers are members of the EBMA? I am pretty sure that this restrictive practice is being driven by the big two or three names that dominate the European cycle market. These guys have huge lobbying budgets as will use them to create an unfair advantage. They are the same companies that dragged their heels in the early days not wanting at accept the ebike revolution. The Chinese not the Europeans developed the market in the early days. Now these few massive businesses are trying desperately and greedily to grab the market using any means at their disposal.

I wonder how many KTM components come from China? I know all the Reise and Müller frames are made just south of Taipei. Taiwan is recognised not as the cheapest but one of the best producers of both carbon and alloy frames.

IMO the handful of European manufacturers cynically driving this round of protectionism are not doing it for any other reason than to line thier own pockets.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

You can. KTM have a "Made in Austria" sticker on them, we had to go though a lot of hoops to get it, and prove the bicycle is made in Austria... which it is. The parts of the bicycle come from all over the world, as indeed do the staff in Austria.

I believe the criteria is that the frames have to be painted in Austria to allow a Made in Austria label to be added. This of course forces the assembly to be done in Austria or nearby. I may be off the mark here, if so what hoops did KTM have to jump though?

 

[tommie]

Ok, lets cut to the chase here,

KTM ebikes then are a collection of Chinese and other Far Eastern parts, no components have in fact come from factories in Austria.... right??

If so please name them and what part of the ebike they are?.

`Made` in Austria my a$$ !!

Why do you want a `Made in Austria` sticker anyway?? I hope it wouldn`t be to con the unsuspecting public into buying them??

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Ok, lets cut to the chase here,

KTM ebikes then are a collection of Chinese and other Far Eastern parts, no components have in fact come from factories in Austria.... right??

If so please name them and what part of the ebike they are?.

`Made` in Austria my a$$ !!

Why do you want a `Made in Austria` sticker anyway?? I hope it wouldn`t be to con the unsuspecting public into buying them??

KTM is an Austrian company with a long long heritage, so of course they want to use the Made In Austria tag line, just as UK companies like to use the Made in UK where they can.

Yes bikes (any brand) are a collection of parts from a host of suppliers, but they are by no means all Far Eastern, but yes I don't think you'll find any of the component brands that KTM use are Austrian, but there are lots across the range that are European.

(side note: we also work with a company called Ursus. These guys have a factory in Italy that makes kick stands, and they actually supply the far east, so you could be riding a Chinese bike and it'll have an Italian kick stand on it.)

So KTM make the bikes (assemble if you'd like) in Austria, and they are proud to do that, and employ a lot of people in their factory.

Normal bikes have been hit with a tariff for years and its allowed EU Brands (including many in the UK) to establish themselves, sourcing their components from all over the planet to make the bikes they want.

http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983

 

[Woosh]

for those interested in import duty: all codes beginning with 8714 are levied at 4.7%

frames, forks, rims, spokes, hubs, brakes, saddles, pedals, cranksets, handlebars, stems, derailleurs, Lithium ion battery are all at 4.7%
The e-bike motor (code 8501 31 00) is levied at 2.7%

http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983

Now, who wants to invest in an e-bike assembling plant?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Maybe Col, but I wonder how many UK bike manufacturers are members of the EBMA? I am pretty sure that this restrictive practice is being driven by the big two or three names that dominate the European cycle market. These guys have huge lobbying budgets as will use them to create an unfair advantage. They are the same companies that dragged their heels in the early days not wanting at accept the ebike revolution. The Chinese not the Europeans developed the market in the early days. Now these few massive businesses are trying desperately and greedily to grab the market using any means at their disposal.

I wonder how many KTM components come from China? I know all the Reise and Müller frames are made just south of Taipei. Taiwan is recognised not as the cheapest but one of the best producers of both carbon and alloy frames.

IMO the handful of European manufacturers cynically driving this round of protectionism are not doing it for any other reason than to line thier own pockets.

All fair points, but I think the lack of or low numbers of UK EBMA members is a reflection of our lack of bike big manufactures, which is for a host of reasons, none of which are EU related.

And yes I'd agree, there are only a few places in the world that you'd want to get your carbon or alloy frames made and they are all in the Far East currently. KTM's development since the 90s can only have been helped by the fact their owner (Mrs. Carol Urkauf-Chen) is originally from Taiwan.

What you need is a good relationship with the factories, because quality control is everything. I've heard some crazy stories about how the factories treat the smaller brands.

I do feel your pain on this, but you have to admit the eBike industry is currently benefiting from its classification as bicycles, not motorbikes. So it is a bit strange they are considered at the same tariff rate as motorbikes, not bicycles isn't it?

 

[flecc]

Don't run away with the idea that all bike parts come from the Orient, they don't.

There are companies in Germany making rims and hubs, a French company making chainrings, cassettes, complete bottom bracket sets with pedal shaft and some accessories, Italian companies also making transmission parts. An English company making drilled disc hub mounts and standard threaded cogs as well as chainrings and handlebars, and another English company mass producing a large range of short length stainless steel spokes from 120mm to 298mm. Yet others producing English made brake pads and brake cables.

In many if not most European countries, some frames are made and there's a huge number of companies making various bicycle peripheral parts like carriers, mudguards and accessories. And of course BMZ in Germany mass produce e-bike batteries and have done for some two decades now. Many brands assemble bikes in Europe and they are painted with western produced paints.

None of it on the Chinese scale of course, but hardly insignificant.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Does anyone know the possible WTO tariff on completed bicycles and completed e-bikes.....this is very important if we decide to crash out from the EU....it is likely this tariff will be the one we have to use to stay part of the WTO club.
We could choose to stay part of the customs union,in which case it looks likely 55% on all bicycles imported from outside the EU.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

for those interested in import duty: all codes beginning with 8714 are levied at 4.7%

frames, forks, rims, spokes, hubs, brakes, saddles, pedals, cranksets, handlebars, stems, derailleurs, Lithium ion battery are all at 4.7%
The e-bike motor (code 8501 31 00) is levied at 2.7%

http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983

Now, who wants to invest in an e-bike assembling plant?

I assume you have visited an e-bike assembly plant?
It isnt that expensive to set one up,a runway with vertical posts,they build them on their side.£10k would probably do it.
KudosDave