Ebike News

[saneagle]

You are right that it is a manufacturing fault causing the fires, the faults being in the cell electrolyte, but it is you who is not getting it. It has long been established beyond question that slight imperfections in cell manufacture lead to the formation of metalic lithium crystals with sharp pointed growths that pierce insulation causing shorts leading to swelling and ultimately fires. And it was the urgency of very many fires in laptop batteries that led to that knowledge.

So much for nobody experiencing those fires, we've even watched videos of then exploding out while idle and out of use and not charging, some in transit merely being carried or laid down. A few of our members have experienced the swelling up short of burning, as I have with a camera battery.

That is why lithium batteries ARE so widely banned from flying, from many courier or postal services, or storage indoors.

Quotes:

"On February 12, 2013, the Wall Street Journal reported that Aviation safety investigators are examining whether the formation of microscopic structures known as dendrites inside the Boeing Co. 787's lithium-ion batteries played a role in twin incidents that prompted the fleet to be grounded nearly a month ago."

"On November 13, 2017, a lithium-ion battery overheated on a United Airlines Boeing 787 during approach to Charles de Gaulle Airport. A spokesman for Boeing said, "the plane experienced a fault with a single cell".

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released a report on December 1, 2014, and assigned blame to several groups:[3]

• GS Yuasa of Japan, for battery manufacturing methods that could introduce defects not caught by inspection
• Boeing's engineers, who failed to consider and test for worst-case battery failures
• The Federal Aviation Administration, that failed to recognize the potential hazard and did not require proper tests as part of its certification process

"The FAA also announced plans to conduct an extensive review of the 787's critical systems. The review's focus was on the safety of the lithium-ion batteries[1] that use lithium cobalt oxide(LiCoO2) as the positive electrode. These electrodes are known for their thermal runaway hazard and provide oxygen for a fire."

"The Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB) has said on January 23 that the battery in ANA jets in Japan reached a maximum voltage of 31 V (i.e. they were operating within the 32 V limit as the Boston JAL 787 had been), but had a sudden unexplained voltage drop[38] to near zero.[39] All cells had signs of thermal damage before the thermal runaway."
.

When you look at all those bike fires, do you see a pattern, or are they all random ebikes that anybody could buy in their local ebike shop, like Wisper, Riese & Muller, Volt, Juicy, Cube, Haibike, etc?

When people mess up, they'll blame anything but themselves. They latch on to the most complicated theoretical technical explanations they can because gullible people like you swallow them so easily.

 

[flecc]

When you look at all those bike fires, do you see a pattern, or are they all random ebikes that anybody could buy in their local ebike shop, like Wisper, Riese & Muller, Volt, Juicy, Cube, Haibike, etc?

When people mess up, they'll blame anything but themselves. They latch on to the most complicated theoretical technical explanations they can because gullible people like you swallow them so easily.

You are very clearly wrong but stubbornly refusing to accept that. The formation of dendrites and the way they cause fires is long established and absolutely not theoretical, as is the cause being insufficient care in cell construction. It's very difficult to completely eliminate them but as Tesla is showing now with the 18640s they now make for themselves, it's possible to make their incidence extremely rare. Unfortunately they have been unable so far to achieve that with the larger size 21700s or 4680s so are having to equip all models with between 7200 and 8000 18640 cells in each.

They understand the dendrite problem only too well with all their fire problems and research into them, as do the most experienced Oriental cell makers, but you prefer to guess that there is another unknown cause without a shred of of evidence that is the case.

It's your right to be as wrong as you wish, but don't try to infer I am gullible because I don't accept your very obvious error.

LINK
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[BootsBoots]

Hi lenny,

Cheers for taking the time to list ebike news, I find it very informative.

Perhaps those who want to discuss topics in detail should start a new thread, just saying!

Thanks

Boots

 

[Ghost1951]

54 security experts, all of whom were very experienced and qualified, wrote a letter to say that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. I guess you believed them. Do you still believe them?

1. I have no interest in Hunter Biden.

He is the troubled, drug addicted son of a soon to be ex-President of the United States who has been visibly degenerating into senescence for years. There are plenty of reasons to wonder how anyone in Joe Biden's condition was not taken out of office for the good of the country. His son's lap top is not one of them. Fathers are not responsible for the behaviour of their adult children.

2. You claim these 54 people commenting on Hunter Biden's laptop are 'security experts' and have found something. I have no idea who they are, what their qualifications are, or whether they are simply 'wannabe' internet warriors and fantasists. What are their bonafides? What are their qualifications? The fact that they are bothering to fanny about on the internet investigating a loser, troubled son of a senile President, suggests they are people of no account.

3. My 'experts' on the other hand ARE experts. They work for a significant research centre and publish academic papers on an academic website as part of the duty of science to publish research findings and enable replication of research. This is a world apart from the massive pile of shyte that is so called 'social media' - especially where it alides with the conspiracy numb-nuttery which goes by the title - Alternative Media.

For some reason - surprising since you are a respected technical adviser on this site, with an engineering background, you have not engaged at all with the description of the phenomena by which lithium and copper dendrites are KNOWN to grow inside lithium cells, both damaging them in terms of their capacity to hold energy, and in some cases, growing to the extent of creating dangerous internal short circuits, and instead, bring up the matter of Hunter Biden's disreputable character - which I do not dispute at all.

The point about Hunter Biden is that he is an embarrassment.



The wonderful possibilities of the Internet have since about the turn of the century, been gradually undermined by the fact that anybody, and everybody on the planet can publish whatever they like and have it seen and repeated by millions of people. Since a proportion of them are in fact verging on insane, obsessed, deranged and unbalanced, we see ever more mad theories, malicious lies, and generally crazy lunacy being propagated around the planet.

Academic papers are NOT the same.

They are not all correct in their conclusions, but as part of the scientific mainstream, they are challenged when wrong and withdrawn. This is how science works

I say to my nine year old grand son who is just dipping his toes into this online world; be very careful what you believe that you read online. Go to proper sources of authenticated expertise. Think about them, discuss them with sensible people and always use caution in deciding what is true.

 

[Ghost1951]

You are very clearly wrong but stubbornly refusing to accept that. The formation of dendrites and the way they cause fires is long established and absolutely not theoretical, as is the cause being insufficient care in cell construction. It's very difficult to completely eliminate them but as Tesla is showing now with the 18640s they now make for themselves, it's possible to make their incidence extremely rare. Unfortunately they have been unable so far to achieve that with the larger size 21700s or 4680s so are having to equip all models with between 7200 and 8000 18640 cells in each.

They understand the dendrite problem only too well with all their fire problems and research into them, as do the most experienced Oriental cell makers, but you prefer to guess that there is another unknown cause without a shred of of evidence that is the case.

It's your right to be as wrong as you wish, but don't try to infer I am gullible because I don't accept your very obvious error.

LINK
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It isn't just bad cell construction. Perfectly good cells can become damaged and dangerous through misuse, specifically over-charging, and over discharging, and by charging cells when they are at too low a temperature. Each of these can damage a perfectly well made cell in the manner we have been discussing.

 

[Ghost1951]

Adrian Chiles is guilty of hate speech against normal legal ebikes. He should be prosecuted for it. Send your complaint to the BBC and the police.

There is no point at all about complaining to the BBC, unless you can get your complaint in front of a very high up person and this is extremely unlikely, though not impossible. The BBC is structurally designed to shed criticism like a duck sheds water. They are ALWAYS right. At least that is what they always say when people complain.

 

[flecc]

It isn't just bad cell construction. Perfectly good cells can become damaged and dangerous through misuse, specifically over-charging, and over discharging, and by charging cells when they are at too low a temperature. Each of these can damage a perfectly well made cell in the manner we have been discussing.

I'd very long ago accepted that of course.

I was arguing against Saneagle's insistence that dendrites as a cause are no better than theoretical.
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[lenny]

Brompton e-bikes delayed because parts used for drones in Ukraine

Cycle manufacturer bumped down queue for electronic controller instrumental in fight against Russia

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[nigelbb]

54 security experts, all of whom were very experienced and qualified, wrote a letter to say that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation. I guess you believed them. Do you still believe them?

Why this continuing obsession with Hunter Biden's laptop? WTF has this to do with eBike batteries catching fire?

 

[Az.]

There is no point at all about complaining to the BBC, unless you can get your complaint in front of a very high up person and this is extremely unlikely, though not impossible. The BBC is structurally designed to shed criticism like a duck sheds water. They are ALWAYS right. At least that is what they always say when people complain.

You can always stop financing this institution.

 

[Ghost1951]

You can always stop financing this institution.

I have done.

I wrote to them at the time they were allowing Gary Lineker to rant his personal views on social media and cancelled my license. Since then, their heavy enforcers have twice written and threatened me when I used my laptop at my partner's house. She has a license and I looked at Iplayer, which they detected and got menacing. It is perfectly allowable to use Iplayer at a house where there is a license when you are a visitor there. The license applies to everyone who is at that premises, whether they have their own license or not.

License enforcement is run by the private company Capita. They are pretty heavy handed. They are allowed to bring private prosecutions under the Single Justice system where a magistrate in a room will be handed a list of many cases and just run through them in a pretty mechanical way. If they take you to court in this way and you don't engage with the process you will be automatically found guilty, get a criminal record and a large fine. This is an absolute scandal and should never have been allowed. We saw where businesses bringing private prosecutions led in the Post Office Scandal. Another set of businesses allowed to bring private prosecutions are the train companies. Just a few examples of how the British State allows and connives at people being taken advantage of by various vested interest parties who get to use the law to enforce compliance.

 

[Az.]

and cancelled my license.

I wish more people done that. BBC really needs a major shakedown.

 

[portals]

How can they 'detect' if you are using iPlayer?

 

[saneagle]

Why this continuing obsession with Hunter Biden's laptop? WTF has this to do with eBike batteries catching fire?

It shows how someone was exerting leverage over government and other officials to spread misinformation in order to hide the truth, then they launder that information and use it as a weapon to shut down anybody, who tries to expose the truth.

Those guys were all intelligence experts and chiefs. At least some of them would have known the truth.

It brings many questions: What leverage was used on them? What else are they using that leverage for? Who else do they have that leverage over?

Here's a report from the House Juditiary Committee that shows how they laundered the story to shutdown anything on Facebook.

Facebook execs suppressed Hunter Biden laptop scandal to curry favor with Biden-Harris admin: bombshell report

WASHINGTON — The FBI warned major US tech companies ahead of The Post’s first reports on Hunter Biden’s laptop in October 2020 that Russian agents were preparing a strikingly similar document dump — and once the scoop materialized, Facebook executives discussed calibrating censorship

judiciary.house.gov

At Hunter's trial, prosecutors said the laptop materials at issue are “extractions by an FBI forensic specialist which were extracted after a technical examination of the laptop in 2019” – and not the files that were publicly released by the repair-shop owner or obtained by news outlets, and other files were subpoenaed directly from Apple to verify them, so the misinformation about the files being digitally altered was debunked at the trial, then Hunter changed his plea to guilty on all charges.

The point is that it shows how you were sucked in by it all and, even though the truth is now out, some sort of dissonance in your head prevents you from accepting it.

 

[saneagle]

I'd very long ago accepted that of course.

I was arguing against Saneagle's insistence that dendrites as a cause are no better than theoretical.
.

They are theoretical, otherwise our batteries would be catching fire. I just checked mine. None are burning today. What about yours?

 

[flecc]

They are theoretical, otherwise our batteries would be catching fire. I just checked mine. None are burning today. What about yours?

The incidence of dendrites is very small, showing up mainly where very large numbers of cells are involved or where misuse or poor manufacture provokes their formation.

Historically the large number of laptop battery fires was due to poor manufacturing, accepted by the cell makers with recalls, much of this long before almost all EAPCS used Li-ion.

The other major incidence has been in 18640 cells used in huge quatities in each EV. Even just one faulty cell in a eight million means every 1000th e-car bursting into flames and that certainly hasn't happened, proving the rarity and the difficult of ensuring it never happens. The incidence may be less than 1 in 10 million cells

Of course the fact that our one million assisted bicycles on the road each only use a very small number of cells mean that 1 in 10 million cells defective will only result in a single number of fires, maybe about five, and we've certainly had that many.

Misuse causes dendrites to form, that proven beyond doubt. You've said previously that you believe the failures are due to various misuses, but how can you know that they didn't produce dendrites? You cannot possibly know that.

And what is the misuse of laptop owners using the supplied chargers?

Or the airlines with 787 Li-ion fires, I'm sure they haven't bought wrong chargers on Ebay?
.

 

[nigelbb]

It shows how someone was exerting leverage over government and other officials to spread misinformation in order to hide the truth, then they launder that information and use it as a weapon to shut down anybody, who tries to expose the truth.

Those guys were all intelligence experts and chiefs. At least some of them would have known the truth.

It brings many questions: What leverage was used on them? What else are they using that leverage for? Who else do they have that leverage over?

Here's a report from the House Juditiary Committee that shows how they laundered the story to shutdown anything on Facebook.

Facebook execs suppressed Hunter Biden laptop scandal to curry favor with Biden-Harris admin: bombshell report

WASHINGTON — The FBI warned major US tech companies ahead of The Post’s first reports on Hunter Biden’s laptop in October 2020 that Russian agents were preparing a strikingly similar document dump — and once the scoop materialized, Facebook executives discussed calibrating censorship

judiciary.house.gov

At Hunter's trial, prosecutors said the laptop materials at issue are “extractions by an FBI forensic specialist which were extracted after a technical examination of the laptop in 2019” – and not the files that were publicly released by the repair-shop owner or obtained by news outlets, and other files were subpoenaed directly from Apple to verify them, so the misinformation about the files being digitally altered was debunked at the trial, then Hunter changed his plea to guilty on all charges.

The point is that it shows how you were sucked in by it all and, even though the truth is now out, some sort of dissonance in your head prevents you from accepting it.

If you want to know who was sucked in then just look in the mirror. I don't give a toss about Hunter Biden or his laptop but then I don't harbour bizarre conspiracy theories like you.

 

[nigelbb]

I have done.

I wrote to them at the time they were allowing Gary Lineker to rant his personal views on social media and cancelled my license. Since then, their heavy enforcers have twice written and threatened me when I used my laptop at my partner's house. She has a license and I looked at Iplayer, which they detected and got menacing. It is perfectly allowable to use Iplayer at a house where there is a license when you are a visitor there. The license applies to everyone who is at that premises, whether they have their own license or not.

Neither the BBC nor Capita know whether you are using iPlayer at your partner's house or anywhere else.

To access iPlayer you need to create & login to an account on the BBC website. The only information required to create an account is an email address a date of brith a gender & a valid UK post code. However none of this information is verified so there is no audit trail to connect an individual to a particular BBC login.

Once you have logged in you most respond to the question regarding whether you have a TV licence. If you confirm that you don't have a TV licence you cannot proceed further & are redirected to the TV licence website. If you lie & state you have a TV licence when you don't there is no way to determine this or enforce the requirement.

Any communications you have received regarding not owning a licence will just be a routine follow up to your cancellation trying to guilt trip you into buying a TV licence. It's nothing to do with what you get up to with your laptop.

 

[nigelbb]

How can they 'detect' if you are using iPlayer?

They can't. The BBC account required to login to BBC iPlayer has no identifier beyond an email address which could just as easily be an anonymous Gmail address. The idea that use of BBC iPlayer is monitored in any meaningful way with regard to enforcement of TV licensing is mistaken.

 

[Ghost1951]

Neither the BBC nor Capita know whether you are using iPlayer at your partner's house or anywhere else.

To access iPlayer you need to create & login to an account on the BBC website. The only information required to create an account is an email address a date of brith a gender & a valid UK post code. However none of this information is verified so there is no audit trail to connect an individual to a particular BBC login.

Once you have logged in you most respond to the question regarding whether you have a TV licence. If you confirm that you don't have a TV licence you cannot proceed further & are redirected to the TV licence website. If you lie & state you have a TV licence when you don't there is no way to determine this or enforce the requirement.

Any communications you have received regarding not owning a licence will just be a routine follow up to your cancellation trying to guilt trip you into buying a TV licence. It's nothing to do with what you get up to with your laptop.

I'm afraid you are mistaken here.

You can not access iplayer without having a BBC account.

When you create an account you give them an email address.

Every time you use Iplayer or any BBC site, the data is logged which allows cross referencing of the date and time of use and your identity.

Since I cancelled my BBC license online, I gave them my email, in connection with my address, email and the BBC account reference used when accessing any BBC service.

I'm sure you can see how the enforcement arm of the BBC - CAPITA can make themselves aware of my use of iplayer when my home address has no license. This irrespective of the fact that I was using it at a licensed premises.

Here is an edited copy of the message they sent me:

We notice you've been using iPlayer Dear Mr************ You need to be covered by a TV Licence to watch BBC programmes on iPlayer, or to watch or record live TV on any channel, no matter what device you use. However, you've previously told us that you don't need a TV Licence at ************* *************, with postcode ending ******* Our records show that you’ve recently used BBC iPlayer. As your No Licence Needed status is now invalid, you will need to buy a TV Licence.​ Buy a TV Licence​ ​

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