Ebike charging using Street EV chargers for electric cars

flecc

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As an aside from this (genuinely interesting) debate Flecc (or anyone else for that matter)....the "generator-in-trailer" idea I suggested in post #3. If the generator were running and charging/ being towed by an EAPC compliant cycle.....would the whole contraption be legal?

Have I just invented the world's cheapest IC/EV hybrid?!

If it's charging the battery in use to drive the bike, it's illegal.

Even if charging a spare battery probably illegal, since there are obscure laws against manufacturing or carrying out unrelated work on the highways. Readymix concrete trucks fell foul of this when first introduced and some arrangement had to be made for them.
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Gavin

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Interesting. I'm still pondering the OP's original challenge ya see.

I hadn't even considered charging the spare battery. Excuse me chaps, I'm off down the patent office....!
 

WheezyRider

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If it's charging the battery in use to drive the bike, it's illegal.

Even if charging a spare battery probably illegal, since there are obscure laws against manufacturing or carrying out unrelated work on the highways. Readymix concrete trucks fell foul of this when first introduced and some arrangement had to be made for them.
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I had hoped that charging an unconnected spare would be ok on a trailer, but it seems even worse than I thought!

So does that mean a solar panel charging cells as you ride is a no no as well?
 

Gavin

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I had hoped that charging an unconnected spare would be ok on a trailer, but it seems even worse than I thought!

So does that mean a solar panel charging cells as you ride is a no no as well?
This might whet your appettite Wheezy:


I think the issue with it in the UK is efficiency rather than legality- you need a lot of solar square footage to generate enough in a reasonable timescale....

You definitely wouldn't need your new "traffic boom" if you were towing that beast behind you!
 
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Gavin

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This one is slightly less ridiculous....

 

flecc

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I had hoped that charging an unconnected spare would be ok on a trailer, but it seems even worse than I thought!

So does that mean a solar panel charging cells as you ride is a no no as well?
You'd have no problem with solar charging while riding since there's a perfect defence. A following wind propels you, as does a downhill gradient, showing that power derived from the environment is acceptable, inevitable and often unavoidable.

The laws against working and manufacturing on the roads are so obscure they'll never be the reason for a stop. But you could be stopped on suspicion of breaching vehicle or exhaust regulations with an i.c. generation running while riding.

You wouldn't be guilty of those of course, and I couldn't see the police or CPS pursuing any other possible breach of a law. The police in particular prefer easily ticketed offences and would see anything probably heading to the higher courts for a decision as a nightmare.
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Gavin

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You'd have no problem with solar charging while riding since there's a perfect defence. A following wind propels you, as does a downhill gradient, showing that power derived from the environment is acceptable, inevitable and often unavoidable.

The laws against working and manufacturing on the roads are so obscure they'll never be the reason for a stop. But you could be stopped on suspicion of breaching vehicle or exhaust regulations with an i.c. generation running while riding.

You wouldn't be guilty of those of course, and I couldn't see the police or CPS pursuing any other possible breach of a law. The police in particular prefer easily ticketed offences and would see anything probably heading to the higher courts for a decision as a nightmare.
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This has piqued my interest. I suspect the difference would lie in the presentation- if it looks like a lash-up you're gonna draw attention, whereas if it looks professional (i.e. with the generator enclosed) the old bill would never know (and never hear it from inside their car).

I'm curious about directly charging the driving battery being illegal. Is that in breach of EAPC law or some other motoring law?
 

flecc

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I'm curious about directly charging the driving battery being illegal. Is that in breach of EAPC law or some other motoring law?
It's partly because the charge into the battery in use can in some systems just as easily go directly to the motor when it's a common path. Those pesky electrons aren't labelled "Not for motor use".

And even ignoring that, it can still be portrayed as like the diesel electric drive on a locomotive, the diesel fuel being the primary fuel source. So your generator petrol could be viewed as in the same drive chain, making your pedelec petrol driven so a moped.

And of course that also introduces emission laws and noise law.
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PP100

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Were E Bikes self charging the battery by pedalling ever a viable thing?
Seems not, for now.
A quick Google tells me this is called regenerative pedalling/braking ?

 
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sjpt

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Were E Bikes self charging the battery by pedalling ever a viable thing?
Seems not, for now.
A quick Google tells me this is called regenerative pedalling/braking ?

That article has it pretty much spot on. You can charge by pedalling, but it's a very inefficient way to get the energy to the wheels. (I wouldn't have expected it to be as bad as the 10% the article mentions.)

Regenerative braking is possible and often used on cars, but the gain is not worth the extra complexity on bikes. One bicycle exception is direct drive motors with no clutch which naturally provide regenerative braking, but at the expense of inefficiency in most running conditions and huge drag when the engine isn't driving.
 

WheezyRider

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Never going to happen of course, especially with governments integrating e-cars into the future grid supplies across Europe, Suddenly car drivers are becoming very handy for a change!

And of course there's always a fair number who just can't use bikes or for whom their jouneys are impractical for cycling. Even in the cycling mad Netherlands that's 30% of the population.
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But if you told a town planner "I've got a technology that can cut congestion by 70%, make people a lot healthier and happier, save the NHS billions per year, dramatically reduce pollution, improve road safety, boost local economies etc etc..." they would bite your hand off...that is until you told them that it involved bicycles...
 

WheezyRider

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This might whet your appettite Wheezy:


I think the issue with it in the UK is efficiency rather than legality- you need a lot of solar square footage to generate enough in a reasonable timescale....

You definitely wouldn't need your new "traffic boom" if you were towing that beast behind you!

I've seen someone on the web with a quadracycle fitted with a solar roof and they rode it from Europe to the Pacific...or somewhere like that very far away. That way you get power and a sun shade/rain shield!

It's not all doom and gloom in the UK for solar. Eg, even if you could only get 50 to 100W, that would be useful. Max sun is about 1kW per sq m. Solar cell efficiency has increased to between 15 and 20% for silicon mono crystalline cells. 1sq m on a trailer is not too difficult, that would give you up to 200W in direct sun. OK, on a bike it's going to be hard to keep it in the correct orientation all the time, but it would still give a useful output. The great thing is when you are stopped somewhere, you can set it up at the best angle and leave it to do its thing.

Not great in winter or in long overcast spells, but in summer I think it would be very useful. You can also buy semi flexible panels now which are a lot lighter.

I've also wondered about a mini wind turbine for use when wild camping somewhere overnight. A telescopic pole and off you go generating power :cool:
 

WheezyRider

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This has piqued my interest. I suspect the difference would lie in the presentation- if it looks like a lash-up you're gonna draw attention, whereas if it looks professional (i.e. with the generator enclosed) the old bill would never know (and never hear it from inside their car).

I'm curious about directly charging the driving battery being illegal. Is that in breach of EAPC law or some other motoring law?
I think you'd have to make a sound proof box and fit an extra silencer... :D

A while ago I did a back of the envelope calculation of the system efficiency of using one of those Screwfix generators for battery charging and my estimate was that only 10% of the energy in the petrol got converted into electrical energy.

Maybe you could coil some copper tube around it and use the wasted heat energy to warm some water for a wild camping shower!
 
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vfr400

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I love your utopian vision @oyster but that would require a government capable of planning beyond the end of the next parliamentary term!

@vulcanears this is an interesting subject, and I really like the idea of being able to tour long distance on an ebike.

Are you in the UK? If so, you'll know that most EV charge points here are in urban environments, which doesn't sound like an ideal camping environment.

What about putting one of these....


....in a trailer so you're totally independent of "the grid"?
I've got the teeshirt:
36601

36602
 
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Gavin

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I've seen someone on the web with a quadracycle fitted with a solar roof and they rode it from Europe to the Pacific...or somewhere like that very far away. That way you get power and a sun shade/rain shield!

It's not all doom and gloom in the UK for solar. Eg, even if you could only get 50 to 100W, that would be useful. Max sun is about 1kW per sq m. Solar cell efficiency has increased to between 15 and 20% for silicon mono crystalline cells. 1sq m on a trailer is not too difficult, that would give you up to 200W in direct sun. OK, on a bike it's going to be hard to keep it in the correct orientation all the time, but it would still give a useful output. The great thing is when you are stopped somewhere, you can set it up at the best angle and leave it to do its thing.

Not great in winter or in long overcast spells, but in summer I think it would be very useful. You can also buy semi flexible panels now which are a lot lighter.

I've also wondered about a mini wind turbine for use when wild camping somewhere overnight. A telescopic pole and off you go generating power :cool:
For summer holidays (i.e 17-19 hours daylight per day) the solar idea would certainly add some value and is a lot more consistent than wind.

I wonder whether you'd be able to charge a bike battery direct from the panel via a DC-DC converter or whether you'd have to invert up to 240AC to use a "proper" ebike charger?

As for the generator, that's the lazy solution!
 

vfr400

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Yowzers VFR, did you make that? Is that one of those old Kipor (kipper!) generators? That must weight 20KG without the trailer!
That Kipor generator weighs 10kg. I now have the one suggested above that weighs 9kg.

I bought a child trailer for £40 and knocked up this one out of 3mm plywood. It tows really well, though the bike I towed it with had a Bafang BPM motor running at 30 amps. Both have been shelved and are sitting at the back of my garage now, along with about 8 other bikes. Since, I built my present bike, 6 years ago, I've never wanted to use anything else. It's perfect.
 
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Gavin

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That Kipor generator weighs 10kg. I now have the one suggested above that weighs 9kg.

I bought a child trailer for £40 and knocked up this one out of 3mm plywood. It tows really well, though the bike I towed it with had a Bafang BPM motor running at 30 amps. Both have been shelved and are sitting at the back of my garage now, along with about 8 other bikes. Since, I built my present bike, 6 years ago, I've never wanted to use anything else. It's perfect.
Good work! Did you use your trailer for any of the long range/ off grid riding that this thread was (originally) about?

I'm curious whether it was a practical solution....
 

vfr400

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I used it for a camping trip of about 50 miles each way. We stopped for about 40 minutes each way to give the 20Ah battery a boost. Luckily the campsite was deserted, so it was no problem to do a full charge there. The enclose and exhaust extension quietened it right down, so I don't think there would be many complaints if I ran it during the day even if it were busy.

If I do another trip, I'd take a spare battery and charge while travelling.

The biggest problem is that there's not as much room as you think. I carried spare petrol (2.5L), and a charger, leaving just enough room for a tent and sleeping bag. The airbed and cooking stuff went in panniers. It was OK for a weekend, but for a longer stay you'd need clothes and other stuff.

Considering everything, I think that it would be better to carry just a spare battery and charger rather than the generator, and hope that every two days you can find somewhere to charge, then you can use just the normal child trailer and get a lot more stuff in it.
 

WheezyRider

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For summer holidays (i.e 17-19 hours daylight per day) the solar idea would certainly add some value and is a lot more consistent than wind.

I wonder whether you'd be able to charge a bike battery direct from the panel via a DC-DC converter or whether you'd have to invert up to 240AC to use a "proper" ebike charger?

As for the generator, that's the lazy solution!
The solar panel would use a DC/DC converter.