E-bikes will not exist in 10 years time

[wibble]

There'll always be a need for transport that doesn't require insurance, license, mot and a test certificate.

What may happen is that ebikes may become more popular and as a result more ebike related accidents will be recorded and the governments may start to impose strict laws upon ebikes. The benefits of ebikes will then be lost. and the world will end.

..or something like that.

 

[flecc]

To Rog from this post location:

That's it in a nutshell Rog. Of course I was tongue in cheek when I remarked lead-acid rules, but the limitations of new battery technologies over the years do cause unfavourable comparison.
.

 

[flecc]

What may happen is that ebikes may become more popular and as a result more ebike related accidents will be recorded and the governments may start to impose strict laws upon ebikes. The benefits of ebikes will then be lost. and the world will end.

I think it was James who also made this catch 22 point.

Either way e-bikes can't make it to wide popularity.
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[Tiberius]

This brings me nicely back to my final year project. Basically I'm going to be using these packs as an 'add on when you want more range' system. They come included with an on board BMS system for cell balancing and at a cost of £65 a pack for 2.3Ah, its a bargain.

They weigh 1 kg each so 4 packs gives a 9.2Ah system at 4kg for a cost of roughly £260. Thanks to their unique manufacturing system they also boast over 2000 recharge cycles; more than 2 years worth I'd expect!

Apologies if anyone knew this already...

James

Hi James,

My intention was always to go into the electronics industry, but I did Physics at Uni for two reasons. There wasn't actually a suitable electronics course in those days, and also I reasoned that knowing the underlying science would be more useful in the long run - and so it turned out.

If you are doing "add on for more range" then presumably you are combining packs in parallel. Have you seen the various schemes for "ideal diodes", where a small circuit controls a MOSFET switch? It still acts as a diode, but the forward voltage drop is down to few mV.

Nick

 

[James1986]

Hi James,

Have you seen the various schemes for "ideal diodes", where a small circuit controls a MOSFET switch? It still acts as a diode, but the forward voltage drop is down to few mV.

Nick

Apparently my 'basic knowledge' is a little too basic .

Could you explain that a little? Are you saying that a normal diode saps lots of volts when the current passes through? Doesn't the MOSFET require power to work anyways? Wouldn't the energy lost through the small circuit make the voltage lost from a diode negligible?

So many if's!!!!!

So I guess to answer your question... no, I havn't seen them. I will look though!

 

[flecc]

I'm in the fire alarm business, so we use huge numbers of Dryfit lead acid batteries.

Rog.

Rog, some years ago there were two SLA types, Yuasa for example with one range for trickle charge use as in burglar and fire alarms, and another high discharge range for our e-bike type of application. I never found out what the difference was.

Since I only ever see one range these days, are there two ranges still available, and if so, do you know what the difference is?
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[Barnowl]

The Virtual Age. In the virtual age it is not necessary to actually build anything new; you just have to dream it up and announce it. This is the age in which the restrictive connections between reality and belief are finally overthrown. Which reminds me, you left out the Dark Ages.

Nick
(Physics)

The Dark Ages will follow the Virtual Age

Maybe this is the Virtual Age. I must dream something new up and announce it.

 

[rog_london]

Rog, some years ago there were two SLA types, Yuasa for example with one range for trickle charge use as in burglar and fire alarms, and another high discharge range for our e-bike type of application. I never found out what the difference was.

Since I only ever see one range these days, are there two ranges still available, and if so, do you know what the difference is?
.

Indeed there are, especially at the bottom end, though the main difference seems to be in the 'high current' ones having much heavier plates and inter-plate connections and proper terminal posts, whereas the lighter ones of the same capacity often have 1/4" spade connectors, which would blow off at the sight of any serious current.

The ones sold as, for example, motorcycle batteries, are 'dry charged' and come with a set of plastic bottles containing the correct amount of acid per cell. You peel off the seal from the battery and press the bottle pack into the resulting holes, and the acid flows in and is soaked up by the fibreglass mat which is used in such batteries to hold the electrolyte. Hence there is no liquid loose inside the battery, and once it has cooled down (it does get hot when you add the acid) you fit a once-and-for-all push-in seal and there you have a dryfit all ready to go and in effect 80% charged.

The aforementioned 65 amp hour jobs are serious beasts - I have three of them here 'salvaged' from site but in as-new condition. They are rated at a maximum discharge current of 500 amps and will deliver 800 amps into a short - so you would want to be careful, as you could have a serious fire without the battery itself even breaking into a sweat.

Yuasa appear to have been taken over - they now bill themselves as 'Enersys, formerly Yuasa Inc.' which strikes me as a foolish move, as Yuasa is such a respected name and is almost the Hoover of the SLA business.

Rog.

 

[Tiberius]

Apparently my 'basic knowledge' is a little too basic .

Could you explain that a little? Are you saying that a normal diode saps lots of volts when the current passes through? Doesn't the MOSFET require power to work anyways? Wouldn't the energy lost through the small circuit make the voltage lost from a diode negligible?

So many if's!!!!!

So I guess to answer your question... no, I havn't seen them. I will look though!

Not lots of volts, but some. At low current a normal diode drops around 0.6 V, a Schottky diode more like 0.4 V. At very high currents those voltage drops go up a bit. So put 20 A through a Schottky and you might lose 0.8 V. That's a power loss of 16 W.

The MOSFET requires bias voltages, but doesn't consume much power. If the turn on resistance is 10 mOhms then at 20 A it will drop 200 mV and the lost power is 4 W.

Saving 12 W may not seem much, but its the difference between a basic heatsink and a serious one.


Nick

 

[James1986]

Thanks Nick! I'll make sure I investigate that when I do my controller designs.

Flecc, check this webby! It told me all about SLA's

LEAD ACID BATTERIES, BATTERY HISTORY TYPES AND DEVELOPMENT THE SOLAR NAVIGATOR WORLD ELECTRIC NAVIGATION CHALLENGE, NELSON KRUSCHANDL

In short, batteries that provide high currents have high surface area plates in the form of aero chocolate bars; but usually cant supply the high currents for very long before their plates disintegrate. Deep cycles have thicker plates, and so last longer, but less surface area and so cannot supply the high currents.

Much like an aero bar in your mouth will disintigrate long before a normal bar of cadburys (as long as you have no teeth)

 

[Tiberius]

The Dark Ages will follow the Virtual Age

Maybe this is the Virtual Age. I must dream something new up and announce it.

I believe you just did.

Nick

 

[James1986]

Followed by the 'Virtually Dark Age', where all our power comes from solar panels in orbit beaming down energy to earth, and sadly, blocking our sun, thus ruining my perfect tan...

 

[Barnowl]

I believe you just did.

Nick

I did. But this is the wrong forum..

 

[Barnowl]

Followed by the 'Virtually Dark Age', where all our power comes from solar panels in orbit beaming down energy to earth, and sadly, blocking our sun, thus ruining my perfect tan...

Worry not James. It's only a virtually perfect tan..

 

[flecc]

The ones sold as, for example, motorcycle batteries, are 'dry charged'

Yuasa appear to have been taken over - they now bill themselves as 'Enersys, formerly Yuasa Inc.' which strikes me as a foolish move, as Yuasa is such a respected name and is almost the Hoover of the SLA business.

Rog.

Thanks for the information Rog, I thought it might be something like that. I'm used to the motorcycle ones since I've replaced them on my own bikes in the past.

That Yuasa move really does seem daft, a bit like the Royal Mail attempting to rename themselves Consignia. Companies are still indulging in this silliness, the latest the respected Norwich Union insurer becoming Aviva now. Whoever decides these things really must be qualified to become bankers.
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[flecc]

Flecc, check this webby! It told me all about SLA's

Thanks James. I'd thought it must be as logical as that.

Maplin used to include both Yuasa ranges in their 1980s to early 1990s catalogue and the ranges appeared almost identical apart from the code number and discharge designation, so it was difficult to envisage really high discharges from that type. From then the two ranges disappeared without explanation, leaving just one type listed.
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[kraeuterbutter]

Hi..
i have only cross-read the thread

"battery-technologie will improve by far the next few years"

i don´t see this so optimistically
1.) range and weight
for my point of view, there was no much improvement the last 3-5 years when it comes to energy-density for batteries
there was big improvements in safety for LiXX-cells, and there was big improvementes for possible power-output for LiXX-cells
but capacity? no

for Power-output: even LiXX-cells from 5 years ago (8C cells) are by far strong enough to power an pedelec
so the improvement from 8C to 35C in the last few years is fine and nice, but not realy needed for pedelecs with the demand of 1-2C

then the idea here, that we will need or see bikes with 300km range and 5min charge-time..
for what ?!?
only few people would go more than 60km a day with the bike, so slow recharging over night is for 90% of people ok

for lifetime: yes, the 10years+ (15years in some datasheets) claim of A123systems was not prooven yet..
but after 2 years of heavy A123 use i can say:
i had never batteries which survived this rude circumstances that well sofar..
not the many Nicd i had, not the many Nimh i had, not the many Lipos i had

i charge with 4C (also when the A123 are still over 50°C hot)
i discharge them within 4-6min
i don´t use a balancer
i have overdischarged them sometimes (downto 1Volt/cell instead of the allowed 2-2,5v)
i have overcharged them by my fault
i have peaked them with 50C Peaks (for a batterybike-battery with 10Ah that would be 500Ampere)
and - occasionally - i have produced short short-circuits

and still: after now 250 cycles gone, i have only a - with my equidment - measurable capacity-loose of only 4% and still same low inner-restistance
(friend of mine has reached over 400cycles sofar, and the battery still works great with ~10% capacity loose.. in same application the former Nimh Batterys got big Ri after 60-80cycles, the Lipos were dead after 100-150cycles)

NONE of my Nicd or Nimh or Lipo has done so good, even on much less harsh conditions
so: the technik for long living, strong, tollerant cells is here !
now only the price has to drop

for the bike and moped thing -> in the last ten years i live here in vienna i see more and more bicyles, more and more bicycle-ways/streets, ....

there were always cheap moped in the shops, they were always cheaper than cars..
nevertheless the people buy cars
i think: as long as the oil is not drastically getting very expensive, no electric bike, no electric moped will ever change this behavior

moped have not replaced bicycles (at least not in my country, more and more bikes are driving around) - so i think electric-mopeds will also not replace electric bicycles

 

[kraeuterbutter]

it depends for sure on the point of view, what the vehicle is for you.

if you only focus on getting from A to B, unimportant how..
then maybe you will choose a moped (gas, electric what ever)

but i for example: if there was a electric moped with
100km distance for 1000 Euro
and an electric bike with 60km distance for 1000 Euro

i would choose the electric bike, because i like to cycle


for cool looking bike:
most look like grandmothers shoping bike

there are still very few or now cool bikes...
the technic is here...

for example look at attachment:
a cool mountainbike,
a nearly not vissible and light Bafang rear-motor with discbrakes (covered by the gear and the diskbrake, nearly unvisible)
the controller -> there should be a make that fits into the saddle-pipe..
gruber assist has managed to include a motor, a tranny, a freewheelunit and the controller ino the saddle-pipe, so it should be possible to make a small 40cm long controller that fitts there, too...

and then some light batterys..
on the picture i have included my Thunderpower-Lipos:
950g light
37V and 4200mah

ok for 20-30km with pedaling
and if you make a longer trip, you mount a extra battery...

i think such a cool bike (all together under 16kg) in a shop -> and people would buy it..
but when i look here to the bike-shops..
the only electric bikes are the panasonic ones or some 3-wheeled once...
not very "cool"

 

[flecc]

I agree kraeuterbutter, battery technology is likely to move at too slow a pace on present evidence, and there's no doubting the preference of the public for cars over mopeds or e-bikes.

This thread was originally from some while back and was very UK centric as you will have seen, forecasting a possible repeat of what had repeatedly happened here before. Much of it would not relate to other countries.

Sadly though I think you are right, it will be the car that wins.
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[kraeuterbutter]

in my eyes, battery technologie is not a problem
we are - at least for bikes - at the finish line

who needs a bike that runs 100km a day ?
for such distances (on a daily basis) you would not use a bike anyway
and for tours or trips you can take another battery with you..

the batterys as they are now technically, but a little cheaper price

if the battery fails after 2-3 years: no problem if a replacement has a reasonable price

for the whole car-issue: in the future there will be problem with oil and later with gas..
maybe not in 40years but some day...
and at that point i think smaller and lighter cars will automatically appear on the stage

in the moment there is a gap:
light and small cars start with around 1000kg -> 2500kg
50 years ago there were cars with only 500kg or even less

i bet, in the future this class will become interesting again
the energy-demand of the whole world will have to go done when the oil goes out
there are not that many alternatives to oil.
bio-oil -> does not realy work, to much recources needed
nuclear fusion -> the next 100years we will not see any benefits if so ever
water energie -> in many countries all possibilities for that are already in use
nuclear power -> well.. thats maybe the only way who it will work