DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

[flecc]

There is strong consumer demand for more powerful ebikes, with throttles. And escooters too. Heck, they're already here, they're not going away and need to be legally integrated into the new active transport landscape. It's a frustratingly complex legislative problem, and it demands bold investment in cycling infrastructure too, but we've got to start somewhere. Doing nothing is not an option.

Consumer demand is not a reason to say yes. There's a large consumer demand for guns, just look at the USA's healthy market for them and I bet they'd sell well here too.

No-one is doing nothing, all you want was allowed very long ago and still is. It just means registration and some licencing. Where's the problem, we always used to do that long ago and it didn't cause problems or prevent cycling popularity then?
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[guerney]

The proposal for a full-time full-power throttle option (up 15.5mph) is the best aspect of all this. To suggest that throttles are unnecessary is to ignore the wants and needs of perhaps the biggest and fastest-growing sector of the whole cycling market - newcomers and returnees - who are so badly needed. To these people, throttles are fundamental to safety and are the gateway to a confident and enjoyable cycling future (I do not say that lightly). Who cares if you have to pedal or not? At least you're out and about on a bike.

My Bafang 36V 250w BBS01B kit is programmed to provide as much assistance a throttle would anyway, all I have to do is keep turning the pedals with minimal effort, and let the motor do nearly all of the work. To get more than an insignificant level of exercise cycling on my bike, I have to pedal beyond the 25kmh cutoff. And that's the way I like it - I prefer arriving at work without breaking a sweat and in need of a shower.

Meanwhile, all my local bike shops are full of glittering sports and performance bikes, many of them electric but way above most budgets. Do they have a throttle? "No sir, throttles are illegal." What?! Talk about cutting your own throat.

The tiny batteries of the more lightweight of those expensive glittering bikes would stuggle powering the bike to 25kph using throttle alone, and if they could, it wouldn't be for long.

They are not 'enthusiasts' and I am disappointed by the prejudice often shown towards them, not to mention the industry's unfounded fear that somehow throttles are a short road to legislative oblivion. This is nonsense - the DfT's genuine intention is to encourage active mobility and this has been clearly demonstrated by multiple initiatives since the Boris Bike some 14 years ago. It's happening on a global scale and ebikes are central to it.

I'm hoping the DaFT simply Tippex and type "500W" over "250W", and do a minimal rewrite of the throttle parts of the legislation making those legal up to 25kph, and leave it at that. But, they're not called the DaFT for no good reason.

 

[Az.]

I'm hoping the DaFT simply Tippex and type "500W" over "250W", and do a minimal rewrite of the throttle parts of the legislation making those legal up to 25kph, and leave it at that. But, they're not called the DaFT for no good reason.

Except DfT is as confused as Mark Sutton.

"
The government proposes (...)

• to amend the legal definition of EAPCs, so that the maximum continuous power output of the electric motor is 500 watts instead of 250 watts

"

Smarter regulation: proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles

Seeks views on proposed changes to the regulations on electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs or e-cycles).

www.gov.uk

Did you notice critical word missing?

So I wish good luck to all who think DfT will make it right.

 

[guerney]

Except DfT is as confused as Mark Sutton.

He really should prioritise reading above writing, until his confusion about this matter is exorcised.

Except DfT is as confused as Mark Sutton.

"
The government proposes (...)

• to amend the legal definition of EAPCs, so that the maximum continuous power output of the electric motor is 500 watts instead of 250 watts

"

Smarter regulation: proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles

Seeks views on proposed changes to the regulations on electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs or e-cycles).

www.gov.uk

Did you notice critical word missing?

So I wish good luck to all who think DfT will make it right.

I imagine that the DaFTers tasked with updating the DaFT website, are not the ones tasked...

"The government proposes (...)

to amend the legal definition of EAPCs, so that the maximum continuous power output of the electric motor is 500 watts instead of 250 watts"

I hope last bit is indicative of direction of change, by DaFTers tasked with writing the actual legislation. Implies a straight swap.

"The government proposes (...)

to amend the legal definition of EAPCs, so that the maximum continuous power output of the electric motor is 500 watts instead of 250 watts"

 

[flecc]

So I wish good luck to all who think DfT will make it right.

It's not only the DfT to blame, they get pulled from pillar to post of by others,

For example, when the e-scooter trial was announced, the government's wishes then were
that any eventual permission for them should follow the two EU rules for them:

Maximum speed 20kph (12.5mph).

Power rating 350 watts.

Obviously that didn't last long before lobbyists came up with throttles and 500 watts with no maximum speed mentioned. What happens in the end will depend on whose will wins, and the DfT may play little part in that.
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[Peter.Bridge]

..I can say is that as a pretty fit 73 year old, my Bafang BBS 01 will just about get me up some of the hills around where I live which have gradients in which I have to climb 300 feet in well less than a mile. I probably benefit from getting pretty out of breath on these climbs. Using my outfit's screen it looks like when I press my throttle lever that I get access to more power and the screen shows something like 500 watts input power - a touch more, but to be honest, I am working pretty hard at these times and can't quite see it, because I am out of the seat and pedalling all I can so my view is less than perfect....
7
The quoted hill mentioned above though is not evenly steep, it is a series of steep and less steep parts. This isn't even the worst hill either. It is simply the one I have taken the trouble to measure with a gps regarding its length and height. If I want to go south out of the South Tyne valley, the hill tops out at over a 1100 feet asl. To the north it is 800 feet asl. The river is at about 300 feet, and my interest in this thread is that people living in such an area and there are plenty, would benefit from supplemental power at a higher level.

For comparison, I'm getting up this on a couple of my hub bikes (36v 18a and 48v 15a controllers), where I am roughly 17 stone. I'm pedalling hard, but not getting out of the saddle.

With the BBS01 you have the advantage of the motor's effort going through the gears (whereas on my hub bikes the motor will be well below its optimum speed going up these hills) and you are considerably lighter than me (although I'm a bit younger - now in my sixties but not super fit or anything)

I'm just thinking your BBS01 parameters may need a bit of tweaking, it's a shame if it's limiting your routes.

 

[guerney]

You are of course right to point out the problem of how the power of an assisting motor is defined. I have read and taken in your several posts on this subject. i defer to your expertise on the matter.

All I can say is that as a pretty fit 73 year old, my Bafang BBS 01 will just about get me up some of the hills around where I live which have gradients in which I have to climb 300 feet in well less than a mile. I probably benefit from getting pretty out of breath on these climbs. Using my outfit's screen it looks like when I press my throttle lever that I get access to more power and the screen shows something like 500 watts input power - a touch more, but to be honest, I am working pretty hard at these times and can't quite see it, because I am out of the seat and pedalling all I can so my view is less than perfect. My bike is set up to not exceed 250 watt input power in its pedal assist mode, but the throttle accesses more. I know that you can buy a cable to adjust parameters. I have not done it. I know that you have raised issues relating to what 250 watts means. All I have to go on is my screen and teh stamp on the motor unit.

The quoted hill mentioned above though is not evenly steep, it is a series of steep and less steep parts. This isn't even the worst hill either. It is simply the one I have taken the trouble to measure with a gps regarding its length and height. If I want to go south out of the South Tyne valley, the hill tops out at over a 1100 feet asl. To the north it is 800 feet asl. The river is at about 300 feet, and my interest in this thread is that people living in such an area and there are plenty, would benefit from supplemental power at a higher level.

View attachment 57491

For comparison, I'm getting up this on a couple of my hub bikes (36v 18a and 48v 15a controllers), where I am roughly 17 stone. I'm pedalling hard, but not getting out of the saddle.

With the BBS01 you have the advantage of the motor's effort going through the gears (whereas on my hub bikes the motor will be well below its optimum speed going up these hills) and you are considerably lighter than me (although I'm a bit younger - now in my sixties but not super fit or anything)

I'm just thinking your BBS01 parameters may need a bit of tweaking, it's a shame if it's limiting your routes.

"...and please do be careful, Bond."

Pardon our interruption...

 

[lenny]

"E-bikes have been blamed for surging numbers of battery fires in London, as fire chiefs warn against plans to legalise more powerful models."

Fire chiefs warn of growing risk of e-bike ‘explosions’

Electric two-wheelers are now the fastest-growing cause of blazes in London

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[guerney]

Wish they'd hurry up! Throttles on the BBSXXX series are current controlled (firmware parameter), nice to use.

Anyone know how long this process could take? Results of more complicated consultations take years.

Here's another one:

DfT Motorcycle Bus Lane Access Consultation Enters Final Stage

The consultation was launched last month and has already received a lot of interest from the public

www.visordown.com

 

[lenny]

"The British Motorcyclists Federation (BMF) has responded to Government proposals to increase the legal power of e-bikes; opposing the proposals and commenting that rather than the piecemeal approach proposed, any changes to the power capacity of e-bikes should be considered as part of a wider and comprehensive regulatory review into ultra light electric Powered Two Wheelers (PTW) and micromobility regulations."
https://www.britishmotorcyclists.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/BMF-Response-To-EAPC-Consultation-25042004.pdf

BMF have responded to the DfT Consultation – British Motorcyclists Federation

www.britishmotorcyclists.co.uk

 

[lenny]

Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety

PACTS response to the DfT consultation on EAPCs - PACTS

PACTS has responded to the Department for Transport consultation on proposed changes involving Electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs) in Great...

www.pacts.org.uk

 

[flecc]

Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety

PACTS response to the DfT consultation on EAPCs - PACTS

PACTS has responded to the Department for Transport consultation on proposed changes involving Electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs) in Great...

www.pacts.org.uk

A very firm thumbs down then, with some very sensible advice to the government.
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[Craiggor 2]

What are the BMF going to say when they find out electric Cars, busses and motorcycles are powered by lithium batteries.

 

[guerney]

What are the BMF going to say when they find out electric Cars, busses and motorcycles are powered by lithium batteries.

Horrifying when they burst into fireballs spitting out battery cells so forcefully they're embedded into walls - electric cars, buses and motorcycles aren't usually charged within homes.

 

[flecc]

What are the BMF going to say when they find out electric Cars, busses and motorcycles are powered by lithium batteries.

They know of course, this is just anti EAPC propaganda from the M/C trade of the same kind that infects every consultation on two wheeler regulation. Their opposition is why we don't have throttles.

However, their recommendation that government should look at the whole area of low powered, environmentally sound mobility rather than their existing piecemeal approach is good advice.
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[Craiggor 2]

I think the BMF need to put their own house in order. I quick search and I can’t find them talking about this consultation on historic vehicles.https://evidence.fbhvc.co.uk/?

 

[Craiggor 2]

I think the BMF need to put their own house in order. I quick search and I can’t find them talking about this consultation on historic vehicles.https://evidence.fbhvc.co.uk/?

Trying to work out what’s AJS about these bikes.

 

[Craiggor 2]

Horrifying when they burst into fireballs spitting out battery cells so forcefully they're embedded into walls - electric cars, buses and motorcycles aren't usually charged within homes.

 

[saneagle]

Trying to work out what’s AJS about these bikes.

Frame and tank. That's all you need to be tax and ULEZ exempt. What a brilliant Idea. I wish I had thought of it before I sold all my BSA stuff.

 

[Craiggor 2]

Frame and tank. That's all you need to be tax and ULEZ exempt. What a brilliant Idea. I wish I had thought of it before I sold all my BSA stuff.

You need 8 points to keep the reg. The one with the sidecar has a hard tail rear end so has lost its 5 points for an unaltered frame, the forks may be AJS 1 point. The second one may have a AJS frame but the rest is all superdream.