DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

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[lenny]

To meet a few points in one: In the one article i'm focused on those at the table in the highest level of discussion around the matter; those in the room on the day are what I can report on. The fact that nobody there, arguably bar Ben at PedalMe, had much to say on the need for 500W is, likely not representative of the entirety of the market. I know it's not, you only need spend 5 mins on any given forum to see that. Yet the fact remains, no hard line pro 500W advocate has stepped forward publicly and given their view, or at least nobody in the room in Parliament had yet come across/was willing to share the source. We can speculate and give opinion til the cows come home, of course, but that's outside of my remit and, dare i say, would call more criticism above and beyond that given of the facts of the day.

As an FYI - articles exist on CE that do explain things like throttles, type approval, modification/tampering etc. All covered off individually, with expert insights, but not featured in detail within each piece written.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

Since virtually any able bodied young man can ride a bicycle twenty miles in an hour, the big mistake was in ever attempting to regulate mildly assisted bicycles at all. By what right in conscience does government interfere with the right of its more aged citizens to progress about the roads on their business on lightweight bicycles? It isn't human powered or light weight, mildly electric powered transport which is killing people every day on our roads. It is heavy motor vehicles. These laws and ridiculous regulations are simply an interfering, nanny state imposition on free people and they are demanded and supported by sheep.

Politicians need to focus on stopping a high probability of serious harm.

 

[Woosh]

15mph is about right for our aged population, with or without power. Young population can still go as fast as they like without the electric assistance.

 

[Craiggor 2]

All the early electric cars did around 15mph.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Since virtually any able bodied young man can ride a bicycle twenty miles in an hour, the big mistake was in ever attempting to regulate mildly assisted bicycles at all. By what right in conscience does government interfere with the right of its more aged citizens to progress about the roads on their business on lightweight bicycles? It isn't human powered or light weight, mildly electric powered transport which is killing people every day on our roads. It is heavy motor vehicles. These laws and ridiculous regulations are simply an interfering, nanny state imposition on free people and they are demanded and supported by sheep.

Politicians need to focus on stopping a high probability of serious harm.

As @flecc has mentioned many times our governments are very proud of the UK's road safety records (one of the best in the world)

"Eager to encourage two wheels to get drivers out of cars, long ago they decided that since mopeds were fairly slow and car drivers were already safety tested, they could be trusted on one. So they added a Group P for 30 mph mopeds automatically to all car driving licences.

The result was that a lot more mopeds appeared on the roads but the accidents shot up, so they put a stop to that on 1st February 2001. The existing drivers kept that group P but from that date on anyone taking a car test no longer got the bonus group P."

I think flecc had mentioned that since then, the Dft have been very wary of relaxing regulations that could cause a spike in accidents

 

[lenny]

"Jim Blackwood died from internal injuries three months after the incident on the pavement outside his home in Rochester, Kent, on 6 July."

Rochester: Daughter of man knocked down by e-bike feels 'unsafe'

Christine White says there are too many cyclists on pavements, after her 91-year-old dad was hit.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 16246]

As @flecc has mentioned many times our governments are very proud of the UK's road safety records (one of the best in the world)

"Eager to encourage two wheels to get drivers out of cars, long ago they decided that since mopeds were fairly slow and car drivers were already safety tested, they could be trusted on one. So they added a Group P for 30 mph mopeds automatically to all car driving licences.

The result was that a lot more mopeds appeared on the roads but the accidents shot up, so they put a stop to that on 1st February 2001. The existing drivers kept that group P but from that date on anyone taking a car test no longer got the bonus group P."

I think flecc had mentioned that since then the Dft have been very wary of relaxing regulations that could cause a spike in accidents

A five hundred watt e-bike is significantly less powerful and a lot lighter than a conventional moped. It also can achieve only a significantly lower speed than a 'moped'. Furthermore, the cause of most two wheeled accidents, including 50 horse power motorbikes, is terrible driving by car and truck drivers. Most motorcyclists killed are killed by car drivers pulling onto roads immediately in front of them. Most bicycle riders who die on the roads are killed by being crushed under trucks and cars. THESE are the vehicles we need to control.not piffling powered e-bikes.

Why this is not obvious to the pernickety control freaks eludes me.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

A five hundred watt e-bike is significantly less powerful and a lot lighter than a conventional moped. It also can achieve only a significantly lower speed than a 'moped'. Furthermore, the cause of most two wheeled accidents, including 50 horse power motorbikes, is terrible driving by car and truck drivers. Most motorcyclists killed are killed by car drivers pulling onto roads immediately in front of them. Most bicycle riders who die on the roads are killed by being crushed under trucks and cars. THESE are the vehicles we need to control.not piffling powered e-bikes.

Why this is not obvious to the pernickety control freaks eludes me.

Because they don't want to bring in legislation that they think risks a big increase in road accidents

 

[Woosh]

A five hundred watt e-bike is significantly less powerful and a lot lighter than a conventional moped. It also can achieve only a significantly lower speed than a 'moped'. Furthermore, the cause of most two wheeled accidents, including 50 horse power motorbikes, is terrible driving by car and truck drivers. Most motorcyclists killed are killed by car drivers pulling onto roads immediately in front of them. Most bicycle riders who die on the roads are killed by being crushed under trucks and cars. THESE are the vehicles we need to control.not piffling powered e-bikes.

Why this is not obvious to the pernickety control freaks eludes me.

as soon as you allow 500W EAPC, they'll go on the pavement and shared paths. They can already type approved as motorbikes. Number plate, insurance, helmet.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

as soon as you allow 500W EAPC, they'll go on the pavement and shared paths. They can already type approved as motorbikes. Number plate, insurance, helmet.

But this is already against the law. If people riding on the pavement is the core of the problem, why not outlaw bikes altogether. There. That would solve it wouldn't it. I hate these pavement riders, except those who are young children, or who are riding slowly on an empty pavement alongside a dangerously crowded and busy road.

 

[saneagle]

A five hundred watt e-bike is significantly less powerful and a lot lighter than a conventional moped. It also can achieve only a significantly lower speed than a 'moped'. Furthermore, the cause of most two wheeled accidents, including 50 horse power motorbikes, is terrible driving by car and truck drivers. Most motorcyclists killed are killed by car drivers pulling onto roads immediately in front of them. Most bicycle riders who die on the roads are killed by being crushed under trucks and cars. THESE are the vehicles we need to control.not piffling powered e-bikes.

Why this is not obvious to the pernickety control freaks eludes me.

Can you define what a a 500w ebike is? How much power does it make or consume? How big is it? How heavy is it? How fast does it go?

 

[Deleted member 16246]

Because they don't want to bring in legislation that they think risks a big increase in road accidents

This is not sensible. It isn't the bikes that cause the accidents. It is bad driving of heavier motor vehicles.

You might as well bring in restrictions of children and pedestrians ability to cross the road like they have in the USA. It is targeting the wrong category of people.

I don't even care about the legislation which restricts pedelecs to 15.4 miles an hour. Not all of the UK is flat like London and Cambridge. A very large part of it is very hilly and here more powerful assistance would be a great benefit - restict the top speed as now.

Try bike riding as a older person in the higher areas if you dare.

 

[Nealh]

Meanwhile the answer to this is for SW to keep showing pics of Lego type toys.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

Can you define what a a 500w ebike is? How much power does it make or consume? How big is it? How heavy is it? How fast does it go?

You are of course right to point out the problem of how the power of an assisting motor is defined. I have read and taken in your several posts on this subject. i defer to your expertise on the matter.

All I can say is that as a pretty fit 73 year old, my Bafang BBS 01 will just about get me up some of the hills around where I live which have gradients in which I have to climb 300 feet in well less than a mile. I probably benefit from getting pretty out of breath on these climbs. Using my outfit's screen it looks like when I press my throttle lever that I get access to more power and the screen shows something like 500 watts input power - a touch more, but to be honest, I am working pretty hard at these times and can't quite see it, because I am out of the seat and pedalling all I can so my view is less than perfect. My bike is set up to not exceed 250 watt input power in its pedal assist mode, but the throttle accesses more. I know that you can buy a cable to adjust parameters. I have not done it. I know that you have raised issues relating to what 250 watts means. All I have to go on is my screen and teh stamp on the motor unit.

The quoted hill mentioned above though is not evenly steep, it is a series of steep and less steep parts. This isn't even the worst hill either. It is simply the one I have taken the trouble to measure with a gps regarding its length and height. If I want to go south out of the South Tyne valley, the hill tops out at over a 1100 feet asl. To the north it is 800 feet asl. The river is at about 300 feet, and my interest in this thread is that people living in such an area and there are plenty, would benefit from supplemental power at a higher level.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

I don't even care about the legislation which restricts pedelecs to 15.4 miles an hour. Not all of the UK is flat like London and Cambridge. A very large part of it is very hilly and here more powerful assistance would be a great benefit - restict the top speed as now.

That's effectively what the existing legislation does now

Laser Mark 250W on Motor

Laser Engrave 250 Watt Continuous Power Rating on Motor Side Plate. This is Truthfull. ALL Hub Motors Offered by Grin Have an Operating Point (RPM and Allowable Temperature) Where They Can Only Sustain 250W.

ebikes.ca

 

[flecc]

A five hundred watt e-bike is significantly less powerful and a lot lighter than a conventional moped. It also can achieve only a significantly lower speed than a 'moped'. Furthermore, the cause of most two wheeled accidents, including 50 horse power motorbikes, is terrible driving by car and truck drivers. Most motorcyclists killed are killed by car drivers pulling onto roads immediately in front of them. Most bicycle riders who die on the roads are killed by being crushed under trucks and cars. THESE are the vehicles we need to control.not piffling powered e-bikes.

Why this is not obvious to the pernickety control freaks eludes me.

It is obvious to them, but apparently not obvious to you.

They are controlling them with registration, ever tougher driving tests and licences, ever lower speed limits and many other restrictions, while keeping EPACs and other bicycles almost bureaucracy free with improved access to the pavements for their rider's safety.

If there's a defect in control it's the lack of policing of the regulations.
.

 

[Nealh]

The public in general certainly won't in their masses and even very few will want to spend several £££K on a cargo bike. Space a lone to store one and most would only consider being fair weather riders the bikes would be a expensive extravagance.
The cheap ugly toy ev's akin to a one or two seat noddy car will be a no go without a garage and somewhere safe to keep the flimsy things in.

No matter what people will continue to waste /throw their money away on even more expensive cars and pay the higher insurance , ved and fuel costs which will incremently rise year on year. The days of cheap living have gone and these idiots will spend all or more of what they may have on them, thus the bleeding heart brigade will blame their lifestyle choices on some one else (ie the govt) rather then their own inibility to budget or look at themselves.

It is already evident with the so called poverty bleating public simply because they have expensive monthly items they don't really need, that cost them 100's of £££'s per month.

Up take on cargo bikes I don't think so, well not in a great number one will see.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

All I can say is that as a pretty fit 73 year old, my Bafang BBS 01 will just about get me up some of the hills around where I live which have gradients in which I have to climb 300 feet in well less than a mile. I probably benefit from getting pretty out of breath on these climbs. Using my outfit's screen it looks like when I press my throttle lever that I get access to more power and the screen shows something like 500 watts input power - a touch more, but to be honest, I am working pretty hard at these times and can't quite see it, because I am out of the seat and pedalling all I can so my view is less than perfect. My bike is set up to not exceed 250 watt input power in its pedal assist mode, but the throttle accesses more. I know that you can buy a cable to adjust parameters. I have not done it. I know that you have raised issues relating to what 250 watts means. All I have to go on is my screen and teh stamp on the motor unit.

All that matters (legislation wise) is what is stamped on the motor and the speed assist limit. The amount of power the controller supplies to the motor is not controlled by any legislation - 500 Watts input power is quite low for hilly areas - I don't know if you are using a 36V or 48V system but @guerney has his parameters optimised for hill climbing

 

[saneagle]

You are of course right to point out the problem of how the power of an assisting motor is defined. I have read and taken in your several posts on this subject. i defer to your expertise on the matter.

All I can say is that as a pretty fit 73 year old, my Bafang BBS 01 will just about get me up some of the hills around where I live which have gradients in which I have to climb 300 feet in well less than a mile. I probably benefit from getting pretty out of breath on these climbs. Using my outfit's screen it looks like when I press my throttle lever that I get access to more power and the screen shows something like 500 watts input power - a touch more, but to be honest, I am working pretty hard at these times and can't quite see it, because I am out of the seat and pedalling all I can so my view is less than perfect. My bike is set up to not exceed 250 watt input power in its pedal assist mode, but the throttle accesses more. I know that you can buy a cable to adjust parameters. I have not done it. I know that you have raised issues relating to what 250 watts means. All I have to go on is my screen and teh stamp on the motor unit.

The quoted hill mentioned above though is not evenly steep, it is a series of steep and less steep parts. This isn't even the worst hill either. It is simply the one I have taken the trouble to measure with a gps regarding its length and height. If I want to go south out of the South Tyne valley, the hill tops out at over a 1100 feet asl. To the north it is 800 feet asl. The river is at about 300 feet, and my interest in this thread is that people living in such an area and there are plenty, would benefit from supplemental power at a higher level.

That's one example. Here's another:

Amazon expands electric cargo bike deliveries in Manchester and London

E-cargo bikes and walkers are expected to make more than two million UK deliveries a year to Amazon’s customers, with plans to roll out further UK micromobility hubs over the coming months.

www.aboutamazon.co.uk