DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

[Ghost1951]

From the super lazy written yahoo article linked above:

"A public consultation launched a year ago said that ministers wanted to double the permitted power level to encourage more people and businesses to use e-bikes.

However, campaigners warned that the plans risked increasing the number of lethal fires linked to e-bikes and their lithium-ion batteries."

How would 500W continuous 'increase the number of lethal fires'....?

As discussed at length with the (cnto) neighbors on the 'close' whatsapp group chat, electric motors cannot catch fire as mostly they are made of metal.

So they're back to talking about 'batteries'? This time they've assumed if its 'twice' the power you need twice the size of battery so twice the 'lethal' fires?

While I do not agree with the assumption, I think the reasoning is slightly different to the way you put it there.

One cause of some fires in badly made systems is that the batteries have too heavy demands placed on them. You could make a case that 500 watts continuous power would be at times pulling a kilowatt from the battery. The argument would go, that the battery would become hotter than if the max continuous current was halved.

We have all seen videos where nasty Deliveroo conversions exploded in the street. Not charging, just over-heated from heavy demands.

But the refusal to make the change is nonsense of course. If the batteries were adequately made, there would be no such problem.

Batteries which are abused are dangerous.

Petrol which is abused is even more dangerous and much more likely to catch fire.

We don't ban people buying petrol, or make them drive 500cc cars.

I am always amazed that we British so love being regulated and ruled. I HATE IT! There is no wonder that our economy is in the tank while the US economy does so much better. We are choked by left wing dogma and rules driven by the same. If it is possible for some lunatic to do something bad with just about anything, all the sensible people - vastly the majority, will be banned from owning whatever it is under pain of draconian punishment, while the REALLY bad people just carry on as before.

Right now, I hear that idiot Idris Elba opining on the radio about whether kitchen knives should not have a point on them!!!! What next? Only plastic cutlery to be allowed in the UK? This tendency is appalling and utterly stupid.

When government bodies fail as they did in the case of the maniac in Southport, government ministers clamp down on people who post stupid remarks on Facebook; demand that social media companies prevent people saying what they think, and flap about how Amazon sold a knife by post, as if THESE were the problems. If it wasn't so depressing, it would be almost laughable.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

How would 500W continuous 'increase the number of lethal fires'....?

I suppose technically, if you are doubling the current you are drawing from the battery, you would expect an increased risk but are there any incidents where the battery catches fire in use.? I think the vast majority happen while charging. I'm not sure if a battery capable of supplying a higher current has more risk when charging or not

 

[kevsbike]

According to the DOT page update this proposal is now abandoned. More objections than support received during the consultation period.
This means no throttles permitted for anytime in the near future and scooters will remain illegal.

It means no throttles without type approval (which Wisper will do for you on one of their bikes) but the 250w limit remains.

Disappointing, as it feels like a missed opportunity for cargo and passenger bikes to get a much-needed boost, but then 500w isn't a huge leap either, used responsibly. I don't think the Panorama hatchet job on "e-bikes" will have helped either, but even cycling journalists don't seem terribly clued up as to the actual facts.

 

[matthewslack]

If 25km/h is respected, then there is no need for higher 'continuous' power. Just about all non-Argos £245 bikes already deliver significantly more than 250W on demand during acceleration and hill climbing.

A separate category with a higher assistance speed would change things.

 

[Woosh]

A separate category with a higher assistance speed would change things.

there are provisions for electric motorbikes. The problem is importers don't want to pay for type approval unless the number is big enough. I have imported an electric motorbike in 2012 and went through the same commercial thinking.

 

[Az.]

are there any incidents where the battery catches fire in use.?

Many. You can easily find some on youtube.

 

[matthewslack]

there are provisions for electric motorbikes. The problem is importers don't want to pay for type approval unless the number is big enough. I have imported an electric motorbike in 2012 and went through the same commercial thinking.

I know all that. I'd just like the continental simplicity of s-pedelec to cross the Dover strait!

 

[lenny]

A separate category with a higher assistance speed would change things.

cross the Dover strait!

 

[flecc]

I know all that. I'd just like the continental simplicity of s-pedelec to cross the Dover strait!

But it hasn't even crossed the mainland EU, out of the 27 countries only accepted in Germany, Denmark and with restrictions in The Netherlands. France was intending to join in but chickened out when The Netherlands hit big public acceptance problems with S-pedelecs. I'm sure that would apply here too, 28mph bicycles on shared pavements etc.

And still no free acting throttle allowed on S-pedelec, so not solving the problem so many Brits express with EAPCs.
.

 

[matthewslack]

I would be quite happy staying on the roads with s-pedelec spec. Of course, impossible to police, so no progress expected.

 

[flecc]

I would be quite happy staying on the roads with s-pedelec spec. Of course, impossible to police, so no progress expected.

Agreed. I'm sure you'll remember the "Yes Minister" comedies on TV, so true to the reality. Civil Servants and ambitious Ministers don't make "courageous" decisions, and allowing motor assisted bicycles to be faster/more powerful/bigger are all courageous decisions. Truth be told, if the majority of the general public had their way, no bicycle would be allowed to have a motor, or even be on the roads at all, getting in the way of their cars!
.

 

[saneagle]

Personally, I don't get the idea of not allowing twist and go throttles, other than it's a type of snobbery. All it does is discriminate against people that can't pedal well enough. It doesn't in any way affect the speed or power of the bike and it makes the bike wobble more when you start off and make the power less controllable, so more dangerous.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Nore do I, we sell a lot of full throttle bikes, often to commuters who find them more stable at low speeds.

Surely a full throttle option makes cycling more inclusive.

All the best, David

 

[matthewslack]

With a full throttle, is it cycling?

 

[flecc]

Personally, I don't get the idea of not allowing twist and go throttles, other than it's a type of snobbery. All it does is discriminate against people that can't pedal well enough. It doesn't in any way affect the speed or power of the bike and it makes the bike wobble more when you start off and make the power less controllable, so more dangerous.

Nore do I, we sell a lot of full throttle bikes, often to commuters who find them more stable at low speeds.

Surely a full throttle option makes cycling more inclusive.

All the best, David

It isn't snobbery, I've explained it many times. It is to keep the bicycle as a bicycle in law and in fact, despite the assistance, and not become any form of motor vehicle. And what defines a bicycle is that it must be pedalled to make progress. (As Matthew comments above)

So an EAPCs's assistance must only be initiated and continued by the rider pedalling at all times assisted. When there is no pedalling, any motor input makes the machine a motor propelled vehicle in law and in fact.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

By all means argue for a change in motor vehicle law to allow a low powered, low speed, two wheeler class without driving licence etc. That already exists in other forms in some countries, for example France's "Voiture Sans Permit", it's a matter for local law, but little chance in Nanny State Britain.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

With a full throttle, is it cycling?

Yes of course.

A motorcycle is a cycle and a pedal cycle is a cycle, when you ride either you are therefore cycling.

A bicycle, cycle or bike is a vehicle with two wheels. Therefore the term is valid for both bicycles and motorcycles.

An independent throttle on an electric bicycle simply makes riding a bicycle easier (and less dangerous in a lot of cases). Why would anyone want to deprive people with less ability to turn the cranks continuously from the joys of cycling?

Our bikes when fitted with a full throttle are no longer EAPC's (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles) they become Le1 mopeds, but enjoy the same freedoms as a non electric bike. They are a hybrid and can happily be pedaled without using the throttle or when the need arrises they can also be driven by the motor alone. Win win!

All the best, David

 

[Bikes4two]

Many. You can easily find some on youtube.

I haven't look for such instances myself, nor will I as it is virtually impossible to determine why the fire occurred. Was it:

• poorly built battery i.e. something coming loose in the pack (rather than down to how it was used)
• a controller pulling too much current for the battery cells
• and other reasons no doubt: miss use, poor design etc
  
  A well designed and constructed system isn't inherantly dangerous and the above are equally applicable to 250w rated motors or indeed any other motor rating.

 

[Woosh]

I haven't look for such instances myself, nor will I as it is virtually impossible to determine why the fire occurred. Was it:

• poorly built battery i.e. something coming loose in the pack (rather than down to how it was used)
• a controller pulling too much current for the battery cells
• and other reasons no doubt: miss use, poor design etc
  
  A well designed and constructed system isn't inherantly dangerous and the above are equally applicable to 250w rated motors or indeed any other motor rating.

Statistics on Lithium battery fires in China indicate that most fires are from ternary or NMC batteries. from what I understand, the problem often occurs at the negative electrode.
Those batteries have their cathode made with Nickel, Manganese, Cobalt Oxides + liquid electrolyte. Poor uniformity of the grains and temperature sensitivity of chemical reactions between the cathode and the electrolyte shorten the life of those batteries and increase fire risk.
Unfortunately, volume production of e-bike batteries is small, there is nothing we can do but wait until LmFP cylindrical cells are made. By adding Manganese to the LFP cells, the gravimetric energy density comes close to NMC batteries that we still use on e-bikes.

 

[flecc]

A motorcycle is a cycle and a pedal cycle is a cycle, when you ride either you are therefore cycling.

A bicycle, cycle or bike is a vehicle with two wheels. Therefore the term is valid for both bicycles and motorcycles.

Sorry David, you can't get away with that, cycle is far too vague a generic term. We cycle all manner of things. My bin men were around earlier cycling, recycling my household waste.

The term EAPC says it all, Electric Assist Pedal Cycle, not Electric Assist Motor Cycle.
.

 

[saneagle]

It isn't snobbery, I've explained it many times. It is to keep the bicycle as a bicycle in law and in fact, despite the assistance, and not become any form of motor vehicle. And what defines a bicycle is that it must be pedalled to make progress. (As Matthew comments above)

So an EAPCs's assistance must only be initiated and continued by the rider pedalling at all times assisted. When there is no pedalling, any motor input makes the machine a motor propelled vehicle in law and in fact.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

By all means argue for a change in motor vehicle law to allow a low powered, low speed, two wheeler class without driving licence etc. That already exists in other forms in some countries, for example France's "Voiture Sans Permit", it's a matter for local law, but little chance in Nanny State Britain.
.

It's pretty well irrelevant what their ideas or intentions are or were. The fact is that they allow bikes that can be assisted with full power by air-pedalling. Anyone, who has the ability to wave their legs around can do assisted pedalling, but some people don't have the strength to get started. If they're going to allow air-pedalling, they might as well allow twist and go.