Cheaper bike

[trex]

SGS Shanghai - that's how I knew about this.

 

[denwyn]

Denwyn....go do yourself a favour and take a trip to the seaside at Weston super Mare and have a test on the Kudos Tornado,if you dont like it fine,but like so many things in life dont knock it till you tried it.
With this hot weather a paddle in the Bristol channel should be a pleasant experience,if you buy the Tornado i'll treat you to an ice cream!!!!
KudosDave

Not knocking it, and I did phone your Weston Super Mare agent, and he was very helpful, I have since then had a test ride on a normal Mountain bike, it was a Careera, not sure of the model, didnt like it, uncomfortable riding position, ok it may be good on the rough tracks, but tyres made it hard on the road. I am 66 now and must get it in my head i'm no longer a youngster and need to look for some comfort. Your Tornado looks and sounds a very good bike, I could I suppose change the tyres etc, or probably more sensible to buy a better suited bike.

 

[trex]

Have you tried a Dutch style low step bike?
This is the current best seller at Woosh:

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bigbear-ls

 

[denwyn]

Have you tried a Dutch style low step bike?
This is the current best seller at Woosh:

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bigbear-ls

Sorry, afraid I'm a bit old fashioned, to me thats a ladies bike, ok I know we live in a unisex age, but I still dont want a ladies bike.

 

[Jimod]

Well that's why I don't understand why you're saying that the change from 2 down to 1st is the easiest. Because going from a 28 to a 34 rear cog means the mech has to do a lot of work even with no power and that's the slowest change. In fact with this system it's best avoided on a hill at all since if it's steep enough to need to you'll be almost stopped before the power kicks in again, and if it's not that steep you don't need to anyway.
.

It's not hard to understand why I typed about going DOWN from 2nd to 1st being easy. The reason I typed it was because I was trying the Woosh Santana CD up a hill and was deliberately in too high a gear so I could test the gear change. It clunked from 5th to 4th, clunked less from 4th to 3rd and from 3rd to 2nd not much problem. Then from 2nd down to 1st it was almost seamless.
I have written a couple of posts about the Woosh and my 2 Kudos bikes up that hill. I just report what I find.

 

[Helen C]

Sorry, afraid I'm a bit old fashioned, to me that's a ladies bike, ok I know we live in a unisex age, but I still dont want a ladies bike.

I realise that we all have different tastes and priorities but often we need to compromise. As there doesn't seem to be a ready made bike that you like the style of, perhaps you would be best going back to the idea of converting one yourself. It would hopefully be easier to find a non-electric bike that you are comfortable on and with.

As you see from my avatar, my bike probably was never intended for a late-middle aged woman but it doesn't bother me at all. I can whizz up the 1 in 5 hill we live on at 12mph, it's very comfortable (not sure why the MTB you tried seemed "hard" on the road) and that's all that matters to me

Hope you find something you like
-H

 

[dmsims]

I think we need to define hill when we are talking about them

To us it's about a 1/2-1 mile long with 15-20% in the mix

The CD is pushed as:
"Why choose a chain drive?
A hub motor can only deliver around 20Nm torque - fine for flat roads but on steep hills, the motor will slow down and output power will drop rapidly.
So if you want to ride hills, a chain drive bike is a must."

I don't care what kind of "knack" you try you have to get off the power to change

The throttle will not get you up "our" hills and you have to contend with the incredibly annoying throttle delay

Human:Give me power
Bike: I'll think about it
after a pause - there you go - you can have it when I'm ready

This cannot be adjusted

By contrast the Bigbear LS is as good as the Santana CD was bad

 

[denwyn]

I realise that we all have different tastes and priorities but often we need to compromise. As there doesn't seem to be a ready made bike that you like the style of, perhaps you would be best going back to the idea of converting one yourself. It would hopefully be easier to find a non-electric bike that you are comfortable on and with.

As you see from my avatar, my bike probably was never intended for a late-middle aged woman but it doesn't bother me at all. I can whizz up the 1 in 5 hill we live on at 12mph, it's very comfortable (not sure why the MTB you tried seemed "hard" on the road) and that's all that matters to me

Hope you find something you like
-H

I like riding my Hybrid Marin San Raphel, but don't like the hills at all, plus any ride over about 30 to 40 mins and I'm done for, now she has a e bike i need something to keep pace. I did think of converting it some time back but knocked that on the head, to much messing about.
Wrong term of phrase " Hard on the road, more i found the mountain bike tyres poor on road surfaces, not easy to steer / ride at all. There are bikes i like, and would probably have bought, but my budget has now been cut to £1000, or at a push £1200, thats why i was looking at Woosh, who look to be good value, a Batribike Granite Pro was ok to, till she bought the female version, and there is absolutely no way we are going out on matching bikes, those are her words and mine ;- ). Ill keep looking, going up to Axcess bikes in Honiton on Monday to look at a 3e sport bike and any others he has in stock in my price range

 

[dmsims]

@denwyn

If you want to try the Big bear get in touch

 

[pn_day]

@denwyn there is a crossbar version of the big bear as well which might look more manly to you

 

[John F]

I think we need to define hill when we are talking about them

To us it's about a 1/2-1 mile long with 15-20% in the mix

The CD is pushed as:
"Why choose a chain drive?
A hub motor can only deliver around 20Nm torque - fine for flat roads but on steep hills, the motor will slow down and output power will drop rapidly.
So if you want to ride hills, a chain drive bike is a must."

I don't care what kind of "knack" you try you have to get off the power to change

The throttle will not get you up "our" hills and you have to contend with the incredibly annoying throttle delay

Human:Give me power
Bike: I'll think about it
after a pause - there you go - you can have it when I'm ready

This cannot be adjusted

By contrast the Bigbear LS is as good as the Santana CD was bad

A Santana CD is "bad" because of the gear change?!

A hill is no problem if you select the right gear at the bottom of the hill! The only time it would be annoying is when you meet a sudden increase in gradient that's out of sight around a corner and you are in an inappropriate gear. I just stick mine in gear 1 or 2 at the bottom and go for it.

A Santana CD pulls my 95kgs up even steepish hills pretty well.

 

[trex]

I think we need to define hill when we are talking about them

To us it's about a 1/2-1 mile long with 15-20% in the mix

The CD is pushed as:
"Why choose a chain drive?
A hub motor can only deliver around 20Nm torque - fine for flat roads but on steep hills, the motor will slow down and output power will drop rapidly.
So if you want to ride hills, a chain drive bike is a must."

I don't care what kind of "knack" you try you have to get off the power to change

The throttle will not get you up "our" hills and you have to contend with the incredibly annoying throttle delay

Human:Give me power
Bike: I'll think about it
after a pause - there you go - you can have it when I'm ready

This cannot be adjusted

By contrast the Bigbear LS is as good as the Santana CD was bad

you should remember the context when the CDs were introduced. People at Woosh thought the BPM motor was illegal, so the comparison is made against 250W Bafang SWX type of motors which can only deliver 20NM torque on a 26" wheel. The TCM motor offers 60NM at the crank, even after gear ratio multiplication, it still gives up to 47NM at the wheels.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The Bafang BPM comes in severall flavours. Nobody ever thought that the 250w one was illegal. BH Emotion were the first to find the 250w version AFIK. Now other brands like Kudos, Volt and Woosh are using it.

The problem has never been the motors, but the way that People misread EN15194. Somehow they interpreted it as 250w max instead of what it actually says, "nominal rating", which means there's no limit on maximum.

 

[trex]

I understand your argument - the problem is not the physics on how power is measured but the legal definition of the '250W nominal'.
To continue logically with this further down the line, If there is no limit on the maximum instant power, where is it going to be next year? 30A controller on the 47V Pana hub to satisfy customers who want to have a bike that behaves like a car with automatic transmission?

 

[flecc]

It isn't just about EN15194, there are vehicle laws which must be complied with. For example:

The EU-Directive 2002/24/EC concerning the Type approval for two and three wheeled vehicles, in which this following extract refers, is mandatory on all member nations :

"Article1 (h) “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedaling” are excluded from type approval.

Pedelecs which exceed the technical specifications must have a type approval and are classified as “mopeds”, and must consequently abide by all additional laws."

The statement maximum continuous rated power qualified only as rated with no mention of nominal doesn't seem to have unlimited flexibility.

Note well, this is motor vehicle law in which EN15194 plays no part and has no jurisdiction. If in motor vehicle law ratings one can be shown to exceed the 250 watts maximum, the legality is called into question.

 

[trex]

I understand that the EN15194 specifications are separate from the EU-Directive 2002/24/EC but if I were an e-bike manufacturer, I'd be careful about using more power than necessary. The fact of the matter is that bikes with 14A controllers have been the 'formula' for a few years before BH started the power race with 18A and 20A controllers.

 

[Kudoscycles]

So many of us have ridden these BPM motors against all the forms of crank drive that for hill climbing ability they are clearly superior,at the May Redbridge event everybody commented that the most powerful were the KTM E-Panasonic hub drive closely followed by the Kudos Performance series,this is not based upon numbers,it is based upon people actually riding the bikes,which is after all that really matters.
With regard to the Woosh product,I do believe that the Woosh Big Bear has a BPM motor in the front and that seems to be spoken well as regards hill climbing ability. It does seem to me that there are elements of this forum that are desperately fighting a rearguard action to support crank drive for reasons of personal motives.
The TCM crank drive motor had advantages over the Bafang SWX motor because the torque reaction of both rider's input and motor drive could be changed to suit the terrain and at low speed when the SWX was turning so slowly that the torque was poor,the TCM motor could continue to provide power based upon still turning at optimum speed. What I mean is that it was not so much that the TCM was working well,it was that the SWX was working badly,note only at slow speed(less than 6mph). I ride my Secret bike ,it has an SWX motor, but the light weight and small wheels allow me to easily reach 6 mph so the problem can be overcome.
However,once we all realised the torque of the BPM motor was available at very low speeds (about 4 mph) and the power came in strongly at much lower motor speeds then the advantage of the crank drive was lost.
Also the hub drive system eliminated all the gear change problems associated with crank drive.
However,I must say that hill climbing is only one aspect of the rideability of these bikes and that the Bosch and Impulse drive systems have been developed to the point that they are very smooth bikes to ride,my favourite bike is still the KTM 400 sport with Bosch drive but it costs £2k.
I wonder how many manufacturers will be releasing BPM (or equivalent) motored bikes at the Eurobike show,early September....certainly the initial offerings from KTM are tending towards that direction.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

only 6 weeks to go now (30 August).
Personally, I don't think BPM is going to make much of an impact in Europe because the profile of European customers are quite different.

 

[Kudoscycles]

you should remember the context when the CDs were introduced. People at Woosh thought the BPM motor was illegal, so the comparison is made against 250W Bafang SWX type of motors which can only deliver 20NM torque on a 26" wheel. The TCM motor offers 60NM at the crank, even after gear ratio multiplication, it still gives up to 47NM at the wheels.

Trex....I think your maths may be somewhat out....if the Woosh could only in the lowest gear produce 47 Nm at the wheels it would be a very poor hill climber,it must be higher than that.
For example the Tonaro produces 90 Nm at the crank and 120 Nm at the wheels.
Regards

 

[trex]

I was pretty good in maths at school - you don't have to start me off! Remember the chainring spins more slowly than the rear wheel? the TCM has maximum output at around 86 RPM 60NM - after demuliplication for the gear ratio 60NM * 34T (rear) / 44T (front) = 46 on gear 1, 60NM * 28T/44T= 38NM on gear 2. I wouldn't know what the Tonaro can do because I don't have the data but I tried the Big Hit once, it was about the same as the TCM.