We fitted the Nuvinci 360 combined with the TCM crank drive motor to our Kudos Eiger bike. It is a very smooth bike to ride and so easy to change gear. The Harmony is very expensive and maybe a step too far for a small importer like Kudos.
KudosDave
Cheaper bike
- Thread starter denwyn
- Start date
KudosDave
all bikes have some compromise. Kudosdave makes the gear change on CDs into a big issue and makes you forget about the pluses of crank drive systems versus hub drives. If you ride sometime unpowered, if you like cycling at high speed, if you like climbing steep hills without worrying about killing your motor, if you like the feel of normal cycling, crank drive is miles better than hub drive. The only drawback is gear noise. So is it a big problem? To be honest, it is for some but not for most. As far as I know, nobody wrecked a derailleur on a crank drive because of gear change. On relatively flat roads, gear change noise is not noticeable. It is noticeable on steeper hills but so it is same with hub drive if you forget to go easy on the pedals. The only thing to remember: stop pedalling before changing gear and use the throttle on steep hills. Is it that difficult to do? no. So enjoy the plus side and stop worrying about a little noise once now and then.
The other option is to get the CD setup and buy a Shimano hub gear set up and replace the gears. Then cd drive with the hub gear changes.
I would do a review but I never had any problems with derailiers before.
Perhaps being mutton jeff is an advantage other than with the wife
I would do a review but I never had any problems with derailiers before.
Perhaps being mutton jeff is an advantage other than with the wife
John, are they at Exeter now? They used to be at South Molton?Hi Denwyn,
You can check out Tonaro crank drive bikes at Powerpedals in Exeter which is not a million miles from Taunton.
http://www.powerpedals.co.uk/
I would recommend the eZee Sprint Primo at £850, but Milton Keynes is way too far from Taunton for test ride
Tree....customers of Woosh came up to me at the London Electric Bike Redbridge event saying that they had to upgrade their derailleur systems to try to get a decent gear change,they had lost count of the number of new chains they had fitted to their Woosh CD. We (Kudos) tried so hard to make crank drive plus derailleur to work destroying many Shimano Alivio derailleur systems and if you read back in this forum there are many examples of customers having trouble with their derailleur systems hooked up to crank drive.....how can you possibly say that 'nobody wrecked a derailleur on a crank drive because of gear change'
I would have been so pleased to make crank drive plus derailleur work,the work and cost of changing 50 plus bikes from derailleur to Nuvinci hub was not a decision we entered into lightly,but it was the only way to ensure longevity and reliability.....those awful graunching noises when you get out of sync with a gear change ,especially uphill full power downshifts in the end must cause terminal damage to the derailleur.
There are many people on this forum who climb steep hills with hub drive and no thought on 'killing their motor'.
One of the most pleasant cycling experiences is riding a hub drive bike with the German Thun torque sensor fitted,it is so intuitive in the way it delivers the power.....you should get out and try one!
This week more Kudos Tornado and Typhoon bikes were sent out than ever before and many of them to Pedelecs members,many of these people tried all sorts of other bikes and were experienced e-bikers,they made the decision that,at this time,BPM hub drive is all round the best solution.
KudosDave
Dave,
I rarely take umbrage but this is an exception. Please tell me exactly how many of our customers you spoke to and how many chains they had lost count of - and perhaps supply some names too. Our customers usually come to us for parts rather than buying elsewhere as we always have stock of almost everything at very reasonable prices,
We have replacement chains in stock. Never sent a single one out though bar one which was purchased 'just in case it was ever needed'.
These are cheap tactics - you should think hard before using them.
Hatti
I rarely take umbrage but this is an exception. Please tell me exactly how many of our customers you spoke to and how many chains they had lost count of - and perhaps supply some names too. Our customers usually come to us for parts rather than buying elsewhere as we always have stock of almost everything at very reasonable prices,
We have replacement chains in stock. Never sent a single one out though bar one which was purchased 'just in case it was ever needed'.
These are cheap tactics - you should think hard before using them.
Hatti
Trex,just a bit of history....2 years ago the whole market was talking crank drive,the combination of the cheap crank drive unit,which I ended up naming the TCM unit plus the cheap Tourney derailleur system was a tempting combination to use,but at the time none of us realised that the combination had shortcomings due to the high chain loads involved.
Even Bosch were caught out by the combined power of crank drive plus rider power and the Shimano Nexus hubs were common failures,until some form of power reduction was developed it was necessary to execute very easy gear changes,Generation 2 Bosch was the result.
Whilst one can specify a technique to alleviate loading on the chain on gear changes it is not something that one can expect customers to follow ,especially if not experienced cyclists.
Hatti....nice couple turned up at our May Redbridge event,they stated that they were generally pleased with their Woosh bikes,taking a view how cheap they were,had upgraded them considerably and had sorted the chain damage problems....no names I am afraid.
Perhaps you might persuade your official (or unofficial) marketing agent named Trex to give a more balanced view on these bikes,he talks as though he is an expert and is your technical consultant but clearly has never ridden a hub BPM motored bike. The result is that this Pedelecs forum is rapidly becoming the Woosh Pedelecs forum and it's hard for customers to get a more wide ranging view on the market in general.
It has pretty much driven away so many of the other traders,who used to make such valuable contribution to this forum. I will admit that Kudos is also getting more than its fair share of promotion but that is only because we seem to have a period where so many Kudos bikes are going out to Pedelecs members.
KudosDave
Even Bosch were caught out by the combined power of crank drive plus rider power and the Shimano Nexus hubs were common failures,until some form of power reduction was developed it was necessary to execute very easy gear changes,Generation 2 Bosch was the result.
Whilst one can specify a technique to alleviate loading on the chain on gear changes it is not something that one can expect customers to follow ,especially if not experienced cyclists.
Hatti....nice couple turned up at our May Redbridge event,they stated that they were generally pleased with their Woosh bikes,taking a view how cheap they were,had upgraded them considerably and had sorted the chain damage problems....no names I am afraid.
Perhaps you might persuade your official (or unofficial) marketing agent named Trex to give a more balanced view on these bikes,he talks as though he is an expert and is your technical consultant but clearly has never ridden a hub BPM motored bike. The result is that this Pedelecs forum is rapidly becoming the Woosh Pedelecs forum and it's hard for customers to get a more wide ranging view on the market in general.
It has pretty much driven away so many of the other traders,who used to make such valuable contribution to this forum. I will admit that Kudos is also getting more than its fair share of promotion but that is only because we seem to have a period where so many Kudos bikes are going out to Pedelecs members.
KudosDave
C
Cyclezee
Guest
D8ve......that's what we all tried but Shimano would not put a warranty on the Nexus 8 hub when combined with a crank drive unit,there was much discussion between Bosch and Shimano about how to degrade the power when executing uphill full power gear changes,the result is generation 2 Bosch.The other option is to get the CD setup and buy a Shimano hub gear set up and replace the gears. Then cd drive with the hub gear changes.
I would do a review but I never had any problems with derailiers before.
Perhaps being mutton jeff is an advantage other than with the wife
Because we have no means of degrading the power on the TCM crank drive we made the decision to use either the Rohlhoff or Nuvinci hub geared unit,the Nuvinci worked very well,is strongly engineered and a reasonable price,the Rohlhoff had a very wide range but was very expensive.
KudosDave
No worries, John.I appreciate you encouraging trying another brand. Your Ezee bikes are super value too.Sorry Hoppy, I stand corrected, at least I got the county right
As you are aware, I have 2 Kudos hub drive bikes and my wife has a Woosh crank drive. In the hill climb test I did I reported about the gear change on the Woosh. It clunked from 5th to 4th and was easier down in the lower gears. I was deliberately in too high a gear simply to test for the clunk. I'd bet I could take the Woosh back up that same hill with less of a clunk simply by being in the proper gear before it got steep. Some people seem to want to fly up hills with little forethought.
However, on the 2 hub drive bikes I don't get the clunking because I can slow the pedals down whilst the hub is still driving the wheel. Most especially on the Typhoon which is the better hill climber of the two.
Changing gears on a hill is not the same on CD and hub, especially if they have a speed sensor instead of a torque sensor.
The best way for someone to find out is to try them, then buy the bike he/she likes best.
D8ve.....it's not the Shimano Nexus 8 is no good,they upgraded the basic hub to Alfine spec some long while ago and are a very good unit....if you look on the Kudos website we use the Nexus 8 hub in our Safari,Eco,Tourer,Liberty and City bikes,all hub drive.Kudos
If the Shimano is no good why have Kallhoff that well known budget brand
I don't hear many reports of the aguttu,s failing infact I think the reviews have been the opposite
But a strong rider with a strong crank drive unit can exert considerable torque into the Nexus unit,this can damage the small internal gears.
I don't know the Kalkhoff Agattu well but I hear that the bike is very well engineered and a smooth unit,I always think of Kalkhoff as the Mercedes of the e-bike world,I think the Agattu uses the impulse drive( please correct me if I am wrong),I suspect that Kalkhoff have engineered the power,just as Bosch,to avoid shock loadings on the Nexus gears.
KudosDave
this thread is about cheaper bikes, under £1000. In this area, Woosh bikes are competent and good value. kudosdave wants you to think that cheap equals nasty, it's nothing of the sort. Woosh bikes give his bikes a run for their money anyday. Don't take any notice.
Kalkhoff have come up with an electromechanical Shift Assist system that cuts motor power for a couple of hundred milliseconds during gear changes. This reduces wear on all parts - motor, chain, sprockets and internal gears - at the point of greatest opportunity for damage, during gear shifts. It also means power is engineered-away the rest of the time.
Bosch only offer power reduction on the derailleur system. They simply turn down the power on hub-geared bikes. Impulse 2.0 doesn't need to do that.
At the same time they've deployed a new gearbox which is better engineered than that on Impulse 1, so it's much quieter (than both Impulse 1 and Bosch), smoother and allows the whole system to operate at a higher power.
More on the Impulse 2 electric bike system used by Kalkhoff and Focus here
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It does seem to have lost its way a little, I am not really sure on crank drives any more, well not the ones in my price bracket. The Kudos Tornado looks a nice bike, I have my doubts I would find a mountain style bike comfortable though, we have a Kudos agent in Weston Super Mare now, so I may pop over and try one out, not ruling Woosh out, could be it may be worth waiting for there new models, im a bit impatient though and would like to sort out a bike ASAP. I understand the Crank / Gear problems now, so dont need any more explanations
I've seen one Kudos bike up close and bought a Woosh and I would put Kudos and Woosh in the same class. Both are Chinese bikes with similar components. Kudos does use slightly better ones on some bikes, and do offer better hub gear options. But those bikes are a lot more money. Kudos is also a bit more expensive generally and that extra money pays for the dealer profits, not extra quality I would think. Dealers aren't going to do it for nothing so internet sales only companies are always going to be cheaper.
It doesn't cost a lot to put an upgraded component on a bike in an area where needed. But the basic bikes would be made in the same factories, and the frames of both Woosh and Kudos and most Chinese bike would be made of the same grade of alloy I would think; and you can't upgrade a frame easily.
From what I can see you have to go up a fair way in price to the European bikes to get a real step up in quality. I quite like the idea of a bike that rides like a Merc. One my favourite cars was a early nineties E Class W124 I had years ago and I'd like a bike that was as relaxing to ride as that was to drive. Maybe in the winter there will be some good offers on the 2014 model Kalkhoffs.....
It's true - if we sold through dealers rather than our own showrooms (new one in Bristol opening very soon...), each Kalkhoff model would be £200-£300 more expensive, more in some cases.
We're set to sell out of most 2014 Kalkhoffs long before Winter this year - certain sizes in the Agattu, Tasman, Focus Thron are long gone already.
Woosh have been going for 'low hanging fruits' for the last few years - budget commuters, plain looking bikes with big batteries because you want the range but not attracting thieves. I am not a fan of BPM bikes because they look heavy, feel heavy and ride heavy. As far as I know, their Big Bear bikes are well liked and constantly in out of stock. Some people wonder why they don't do like Kudos, put the motor on the back wheel. The reason: Hatti does not want to see a broken spoke - ever. I think Woosh will evolve into a European bike company in a not too distant future. The people working there are well aware of shortcomings with working with Chinese factories. You should tell Hatti what you like in your bike, you'll be surpised to see how much of a good listener she is.
Tried out a normal mountain bike this morning, it was a Careera bike, not sure on the model, anyway I have ruled out any electric e bike, didnt like the riding position, disliked the knobbly tyres, couldnt see me feeling safe on one on roads. Could never see me doing anything off road anyway. Only road bikes fromnow on.
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