Buying First Electric Bike

[Ian]

Hi Kiwi.

few things would please me me more that to see a really practical electric car on the market but I really don't think it'll happen in the foreseeable future.

Clearly you haven't viewed the DVD about the EV1.

There are several versions of the EV1 story, each of which can be interpreted in different ways depending on ones point view, but the facts I believe are as follows.
The vehicle was a small two seater with a very good aerodynamic profile which aided it's range where speed could be maintained and in it's final pre hybrid form was claimed with careful driving to be able achieve over 100 miles from NiMh batteries totalling 27kWh. It was also claimed to have a high performance from it's massive 100kW motor. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see what would happen to the range if you were use all that performance, and you don't have to be an accountant to know that to replace that battery would be very expensive indeed.

I believe the EV1 was only available to California residents, supposedly because of proposed legislation requiring a percentage of new vehicles to have zero emissions, it is therefore probably pure coincidence that the vehicles were leased to drivers in mid and southern California where conditions permit optimum battery performance and a heater is rarely needed for comfort.

The indisputable fact that we all know from our bikes is that batteries are expensive and have a limited life, and the bigger the battery the more expensive it is. The batteries used in the EV1 were equivalent to 70 typical e-bike batteries, using exactly the same NiMh technology with absolutely no reason why they should last longer the replacement cost would have added very significantly to the total cost of ownership had the vehicle ever been available for sale.

I think the public is becoming more educated about such things. Certainly things like multi-tiered congestion charging and scaled parking permit fees are helping the cause for electric cars.

It's certainly true that many members of the public are becoming more educated about environmental issues but where I live there is little evidence of it. Most of my neighbours seem to regard their cars as a status symbol many driving cars that cost almost as much as their house on ridiculously short journeys with no regard for the environment.

Of course the electric bike is preferred over even electric cars where practical though.

Agreed 100%. BMW 4x4's seem to grow on trees round here but I've never seen a neighbour on an electric bike, seems I'm the only one who has a status symbol of that magnitude

 

[JohnInStockie]

Sorry everyone, but I have to say this.

People do not choose cars based on need. As an employee of a leasing co., I can state that as an absolute truth. We have drivers sending cars back 'because the upholstery is the wrong colour'!

FACT - we live in a car culture, we are raised to 'one day' drive a car, all of our TV encourages car use, stars in sports cars are seen with car envy, most advertising revenue for TV, Magazines, Billboards and the Newspapers are from car manufacturers, they are the new cigarette companies of our society.

Very very few people chose the next car they are going to have based on their need, its make, colour, size, but mainly status sybolism, which just shows how well its ingrained into our culture. If they did then most commuters (who on average drive is it 5 miles?) would be in a Daewoo Matiz!

The truth of the matter is that we shouldnt be encouraging people to commute in insular large tin boxes at all, there is no need for it, it wastes resources, damages our planet and our health (directly and indirectly) and it clogs our highways.

If you are taking the family out, travelling a long distance to a clients, or anywhere you have to go thats far away, then yes, absolutely.

But thats not the truth of most journeys made by car drivers

John

 

[allotmenteer]

Sorry everyone, but I have to say this.
Very very few people chose the next car they are going to have based on their need, its make, colour, size, but mainly status sybolism, which just shows how well its ingrained into our culture. If they did then most commuters (who on average drive is it 5 miles?) would be in a Daewoo Matiz!
John

I've got a Matiz! I didn't give a stuff what colour it was either, just took the one they could deliver quickest that had a/c and abs. They're great little cars though I will be trading it in very soon for a Citroen C1 which does around 60 mpg. The Toyota Prius is a real gas guzzler in comparison.
Anyone for an anti-Prius campaign? We could go round slapping stickers on them and shaming the drivers into buying a car like my new one that costs 1/3 the price and does about 30% more mpg.

Paul

 

[Ian]

Sorry everyone, but I have to say this.

No apology needed John, you speak the truth, every day I see parents doing "school runs" of half a mile in BMW X5's, it would be quicker to walk but no one would see the car then.

They don't seem to realise that not all of us are impressed

 

[Flying Kiwi]

So, FK, you believe that manufacturers should offer short-range electrics as well as other vehicles.

No I believe they should be offering long range full electrics as well but 100 miles which is currently quite achievable with many good electric cars will be more than adequate for daily use of the majority.

I believe that the reason they don't is because they do not believe they will sell. You talk about demand - their seems to have been little demand for all-electric vehicles, with the exception of the EV1 enthusiasts and the milk dairies (!).

Dragging out the milk float comparison has no relevance whatsoever. I think most people realise they're vehicles designed for a specific purpose (which they perform well) and electric car design is a totally different kettle of fish. Where did the EV1 enthusiasts come from - they weren't born that way? The point is GM had plenty of demand for the EV1. Yes C.A.R.B. played a part in creating that demand but it was there before and after the emmission reduction legislation was being looked at. There's no reason to believe that demand won't be there for any other well designed electric cars and if anything, our higher fuel prices would tend to encourage more electric car thinking. All those people calling at least one car company I know of and asking about electrics cant be wrong. You know I cant remember a single enquiry for a hybrid, just do you have any electric cars?

regarding the hybrid synergie drive

their is a demand for them - Toyota cannot make them fast enough. Indeed, it has spurred one of the few changes in the US motor industry not forced through by legislation for years - US manufacturers are now looking at hybrid transmissions and regeneration, and bringing such vehicels to market.

That shows people are wanting alternatives to conventional IC engined cars. Purely electric cars are another option and I've no reason to believe their greater overall efficiency, when compared to hybrids wouldn't fail to attract a following.

Now there is a difference between demand (the wish of a group of individuals) and econmic demand (enough of those individuals to make sales of such an item profitable - or if not, at least an excruciatingly loss).

If the reason is really that the automakers got cold feet over profitability concerns then how do you explain that the a number of them all pulled out around the same time and that perfectly satisfactory profit making leased EV1 models (as just one example) were crushed, even though their drivers wanted to hang on to them?

I also find it hard to believe that Toyota, now the biggest car maker on the planet, did not evaluate all electric as an option and reject it - presumably on economic or engineering grounds. Are you qualified enough, FK, in matters of manufacturing economics and electric vehicle engineering to realistically challenge that view?

I'm qualified enough to smell a rat when a bunch of auto manufacturers all dropped full electrics like a hot potato at the same time as mentioned in that documentary. Honestly, if you've not yet seen it, you really should.

And the difference between a radical subtext and an idealistic viewpoint? Merely the degree to which you can accept that not everyone sees the world as you do.

The point is it's all an issue of perception and one mans fanatic may be another mans torch bearing leader. I think that people who expect manufacturers to provide both types of car cant be accused of not considering other peoples views.

It is those who I accuse of a radical subtext, that for many years have lead to green issues being seen to be wacky or the domain of nutcases.

I'm not here to defend the actions of 'green' organisations but I was pleased when Alain Mafart and Dominique Prieur were caught after the Rainbow Warrior was bombed in NZ waters. They were French secret service agents so which party was responsible for radical subtext in that case?

 

[Flying Kiwi]

few things would please me me more that to see a really practical electric car on the market but I really don't think it'll happen in the foreseeable future.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't consider that along the same lines as Bill Gates claiming that 640 kb of RAM would be suffient for any PC user. In the world of technology things can change rapidly and I hold an opposing view.

There are several versions of the EV1 story

The one I refer to is the Sony DVD linked to on that website. Lovefilm have it in their library.I'm not familiar with the details you provide and I thought it was always designed to be fully electric, it's just initially it only had lead acid batteries. It was only when the NiMH batteries were fitted that its image (and specs) improved significantly. As for battery cost, yes it would be high but as GM bought up large shares in the battery manufacturer, alot of it was money going back into their own coffers. When the batteries eventually died (and it was claimed that they'd last the life of the vehicle), they could also control recycling. Current electric vehicles often have heaters powered by a combustible fuel such as petrol - but then you don't have to use that (just like aircond in the Prius).

 

[Tim]

I think thats true and thus the warranty is unfair. I read the 50 cycles warranty and extended warranty and the battery excusion is buried in the small print. This kind of chicanery seems slightly odd behaviour when contrasted with all the reports on this forum of excellent customer service.

I can assure you it's cock-up rather than conspiracy. And there isn't really any small print on that page. I will make the terms clearer if need be, or offer another battery warranty extension. We find that if a battery goes wrong it usually does so within a couple of months or not at all. Maybe the warranty term will be extended to a year and beyond, we are due to review the whole subject of batteries with eZee later this year.

 

[Ian]

Unfortunately Kiwi, battery technology changes very slowly, theres nothing new on the horizon that will change things, just a slow and continued evolution of existing types which will remain expensive due to the relatively rare metals needed to make them.

As you say the EV1 was designed to be fully electric to comply with proposed california legislation, however in the projects later stages all the battery powered versions were recalled and destroyed under the terms of the lease and a hybrid version was developed in an attempt to increase the range before the project was finaly scrapped.
The batteries did in indeed last the life of the vehicle, which was the life of the lease (2 or 3 years I think). No leases were renewed and the vehicles were scrapped.

For a really practical EV solution see here (1st post, 2nd line)

 

[DBCohen]

No I believe they should be offering long range full electrics as well but 100 miles which is currently quite achievable with many good electric cars will be more than adequate for daily use of the majority.

I'm qualified enough to smell a rat when a bunch of auto manufacturers all dropped full electrics like a hot potato at the same time as mentioned in that documentary. Honestly, if you've not yet seen it, you really should.

FK, one documentary does not prove a conspiracy - it just makes a conspiracy theory.

Look, even though I am new round here, I can tell from your other posts that you are a dogmatic kind of guy. I am not interested in debating whether all-electric vehicles have been killed by engineers, marketing suits or men in black.

So let me close the debate with this - if anyone brings to market an all-electric car with a 300-mile range in normal traffic/driving conditions, I will buy one. That's the tipping point, as far as I am concerned. If anyone can live with less performance than that, then good on them.

 

[DBCohen]

I've got a Matiz! I didn't give a stuff what colour it was either, just took the one they could deliver quickest that had a/c and abs. They're great little cars though I will be trading it in very soon for a Citroen C1 which does around 60 mpg. The Toyota Prius is a real gas guzzler in comparison.
Anyone for an anti-Prius campaign? We could go round slapping stickers on them and shaming the drivers into buying a car like my new one that costs 1/3 the price and does about 30% more mpg.

Paul

It's not about MPG alone, it's about emissions. And I would hardly say that 49 MPG (what my Prius average is since I got it) compared to 60 MPG is a 'gas guzzler'. Get 10-12MPG around town in a a 4-litre Merc S-class or a BMW X5, and then talk to me about guzzling.

Looking at CO2 emissions (because that is what is going to put the coasts under water), a Prius emits 22%-34% less CO2 per kilometre than a Matiz, dependent on model.

Again, I go back to a previous post - Prius is the first time that the motoring industry has mass-produced a vehicle that aims to compromise on efficiency, emissions and useability for the benefit of the environment. And still they get slated by some people.

If you want to start a campaign, I can think of a large variety of other vehicles that are more appropriate candidates.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Battery Guarantee - Lithium

I can assure you it's cock-up rather than conspiracy. And there isn't really any small print on that page. I will make the terms clearer if need be, or offer another battery warranty extension. We find that if a battery goes wrong it usually does so within a couple of months or not at all. Maybe the warranty term will be extended to a year and beyond, we are due to review the whole subject of batteries with eZee later this year.

Tim:
How about giving me the benefit of what you say above. It is YOUR Cock-up!
My Lithium battery failed (would not hold its charge) after 80 miles. Unfortunately because it got very little use at the end of last Summer and
Winter it was 8 months old (from date of delivery). I was required to pay £250 for a new one - that's £3+ per mile.

I would draw your attention to the contradiction between the Sprint Manual (that was the one provided with the Chopper) and the statements made by Mr. Ching of eZee Cycles - I will paste them below.

PERHAPS ON THIS OCCASION YOU WILL DO ME THE COURTESY OF REPLYING TO THIS CONTACT (OR TO MY E-MAILS: THAT WOULD HELP FOR STARTERS).

In answer to my question, Mr. Ching wrote:
4) Our guarantee for the battery is 6 months up to 80% DOD (depth of discharge) or capacity.
Battery could be subject to abuse, such as deep discharge that means customer always discharge his battery empty very frequently, and etc. The more you charge the battery the better, and don´t take it to empty.

Quoting from the Sprint (Chopper) Manual:
11. Low Voltage Protection: To prevent the battery from deep discharge that will irreversibly damage the battery, the power will cut of when it reached a certain low voltage protection. When you see that the battery level indicator shows the yellow/orange warning light it is necessary to charge your battery again. When the minimum battery level is reached the electric motor will not function smoothly.

Section 5 Battery Charging Operations:
NEW BATTERY NEEDS TO BE CONDITIONED WITH 2 OR 3 FULL DISCHARGES AND CHARGE CYCLES BEFORE IT COME TO THE FULL CAPACITY.

So! who is right? Mr. Ching (in his e-mail to me) or eZee Cycles (in their Manual?): Are they not one and the same?
Which came first, the Manual (and the advice therein) or Mr. Ching's expose of how one should treat one's Lithium battery?
It was the Manual - Actually, in the case of the Chopper the advice was not followed because no ride was made greater than 20 miles and that did not 'Deeply Discharge' the battery. So the battery was not damaged by the way it was treated - it was simply doomed to a short life from the start.

In case you believe that the advice in the Manual was applicable to the NiMH battery only you should refer to it: you will find the advice comes under the heading:
"Battery Charging Operations"
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) 36V 9Ah or Lithium Ion (Li+) 36V 10Ah

As for "small print": the guarantee terms for the battery were NOT shown where the guarantee terms were placed on the web page under "Specification", they were "burried away" in the commentary on Lithium Batteries on another page (one of about 30 pages dealing with the characteristics of the cycle referred to.
If you are keen to clarify the terms of the Guarantee you should do so without delay: other potential customers are being misled as I write.
But you had the opportunity to clarify the terms to me over many of the last weeks where I wrote to you numerously about the "VAGUE" terms of the guarantee in general - but as yet no reply.
Here's your chance to put matters right
Peter Clutterbuck

PS: As a retired business man I would ask that you take a hard, deep look at your web site and what is published there: not only to correct the exagerations but also to fill in the missing gaps on information that should be supplied for clarity and transparancy. And publish under the heading "GUARANTEE" the full terms of that guarantee as refers to: The Frame, Components and Battery and cover the other interesting facts such as who pays for the delivery and return of failed components/cycles. Silence on the subject does not mean "the customer".
You have under the comments (feedback ) on one model published the same euphoric feedback on another model.

 

[allotmenteer]

It's not about MPG alone, it's about emissions.
Looking at CO2 emissions (because that is what is going to put the coasts under water), a Prius emits 22%-34% less CO2 per kilometre than a Matiz, dependent on model.
If you want to start a campaign, I can think of a large variety of other vehicles that are more appropriate candidates.

I was joking about the campaign you know!

I agree my matiz isn't the best on emissions (161 g/km) which is one reason I'm swapping it for a Citroen C1 which has a 109 g/km emissions (and £35 car tax instead of £140 for the matiz).
The C1 list price is £5800 (with current manufacturer discounts) and does 61.9 mpg (officially). I expect in practice to get no less than 58mpg (and perhaps more than 61.9 with my driving pattern - I do 42 mpg (against 44 mpg offical figures) with the matiz and that's with roof bars and putting my foot down.
The Prius is about £18000 and returns around 50mpg with 104 g/km emissions. That's £12000 to save about 5g/km CO2.
My advice to those who are considering buying a Prius is don't. Buy a C1 (or another mainstream car with low CO2 rating) and then spend the huge saving on an ebike. Think of the bike you could have for £12000!

 

[flecc]

My advice to those who are considering buying a Prius is don't. Buy a C1 (or another mainstream car with low CO2 rating) and then spend the huge saving on an ebike. Think of the bike you could have for £12000!

Very wise advice, not just for the £12000 saving, but more importantly for the even bigger benefit that would result every time the bike was used instead of the car. Even with a fair weather only rider, the additional savings in fuel cost and CO2 emission would be very large.

 

[electric.mike]

i think we need a dedicated green thread, then we can keep all the co2 in one place

 

[allotmenteer]

i think we need a dedicated green thread, then we can keep all the co2 in one place

Maybe we could compress the CO2 and use it to inflate our ebike tyres

 

[flecc]

Just watched the midday news on the introduction of an emissions detector camera to London. Seems Beijing already uses them to prevent polluters entering the city. Good idea, but cyclists perhaps ought to lay off the baked beans.
.

 

[DBCohen]

I was joking about the campaign you know!


My advice to those who are considering buying a Prius is don't. Buy a C1 (or another mainstream car with low CO2 rating) and then spend the huge saving on an ebike. Think of the bike you could have for £12000!

Unless you want a family saloon-sized car that can seat five comfortably, automatic transmission, a decent ride, a boot than can take more than one shopping bag, dont like bare metal or shiny cheap plastics, and fancy Japanese reliability rather than French wonkiness!

My point? Compare apples with apples. A budget supermini is a completely different market sector to the family saloon - and some of us cannot manage with a car that small. Again, if you can, great for you. If you need a family saloon, a Prius will give you supermini emissions in a much bigger car - that is the whole point. It is not intended to compete directly with the cars in that sector.

I ran a Honda Jazz before the Prius, so I am well versed in the pros and cons of the small car. Choosing a car, or an electric bike, is all about balancing your requirements against what you can afford or are willing to pay.

And I would advocate a Toyota Aygo over a C1 any day of the week. They are exactly the same design, but the Toyota will be better built, more reliable and has better residuals. That is why they throw so much discount at the Citroens.

 

[electric.mike]

flecc

but cyclists perhaps ought to lay off the baked beans.

again we move away from electric bikes to jet propulsion

mike

 

[coops]

Did you know? at 20mph 80% of cyclists' effort is against wind resistance?...

I think we need a thread on dietary advice too (sorry couldn't resist! - oops! Where's the cap on CO2 emissions when you need it )

Stuart.

 

[allotmenteer]

... and fancy Japanese reliability rather than French wonkiness!

And I would advocate a Toyota Aygo over a C1 any day of the week. They are exactly the same design, but the Toyota will be better built, more reliable and has better residuals. That is why they throw so much discount at the Citroens.

I admit the Prius is bigger and I should have chosen a bigger car to compare it with.

Be fair to Citroen though, they have been improving their reliability over recent years (they needed to!) though it is not relevant to the C1 / 107 / Aygo topic. I wouldn't pay more for the Aygo since the engine is identical (as is just about all the car). More importantly it is put together by the same workers on the same production line.

The Aygo, C1 and 107 use the same Toyota designed floorpan and running gear and are built in £1bn investment factory funded jointly by PSA and Toyota. The facility was designed and equipped by Toyota and can produce 300,000 cars a year. It is situated at Kolin in the Czech Republic which chosen because of its central European position for the supply of parts and because of the ample availability of less costly workers.

If you buy an Aygo then, you are paying much more for a badge. If you want an Aygo buy a C1 and then order a couple of badges from Toyota.

As for residuals just how much can a £5800 car lose in a few years? It may be a Citroen but it should still hold it's value well due to the low running costs and low insurance making it an excellent choice for a 2nd car / young persons car.