Buying First Electric Bike

DBCohen

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May 2, 2007
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This situation is reminiscent of the old TV warranty for one year with tube and valves just 3 months.

The Prius battery "shock to come" is like that of the Peugeot 207 electric car of a while ago, an NiMh battery change four yearly (if you were lucky) costing £4000, more than the car was worth at that age.
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:mad: Ah, you really have to admire the American motoring lobby groups - they have done a FANTASTIC job with their negative hybrid publicity. They have done this to continue to encourage US car buyers to buy gas guzzling, high emission vehicles because it is cheaper for them to make those than to do anything environmentally responsible.

The comments by Flecc and Ian are indications of how successful these lobbyists have been at spreading fear-mongering rumours about hidden costs in hybrids.

Toyota really are committed to this technology as a way of responsibly trying to reduce the impact of their cars on the environment. They have invested billions in producing and refining this technology.

To illustrate, let me quote from my own Toyota Prius manual:

Warranty Coverage:

Basic: 36 months/36,000 miles (all components other than normal wear and maintenance items).

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Prius' hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.

See what I mean?
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Wrongly accused DBCohen, that's not what I said! I was aware of the Prius battery situation, but I was specifically referring to two electric cars, and the Prius certainly isn't that, despite it's hype.

The Prius is solely a petrol car, and petrol is it's only source of power. Regeneration is merely the return of kinetic energy put in by the petrol motor in the first place, and that should be more widely realised.

It's cars themselves that are the problem, all IC powered cars including the Prius, and they need to be used less.
 

Beeping-Sleauty

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 12, 2006
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Colchester, Essex
....It's cars themselves that are the problem, all IC powered cars including the Prius, and they need to be used less.
right again Mr Flecc,

roads are not just for vehicles,

we have to 'unlearn' the car, with the unfortunate state of public transport, the humble bicycle, electric or not, would seem a sensible option,

But, billions of Asians and Chinese, who have for some time been riding bicycles, will shortly be in a position to acquire cheap locally manufactured motor vehicles,

beeps
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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But, billions of Asians and Chinese, who have for some time been riding bicycles, will shortly be in a position to acquire cheap locally manufactured motor vehicles,

beeps
Fortunately at my age I won't be around when they've all achieved that ambition. :) Every cloud does indeed have it's silver lining! :D
 

DBCohen

Pedelecer
May 2, 2007
155
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Manchester
Wrongly accused DBCohen, that's not what I said! I was aware of the Prius battery situation, but I was specifically referring to two electric cars, and the Prius certainly isn't that, despite it's hype.

The Prius is solely a petrol car, and petrol is it's only source of power. Regeneration is merely the return of kinetic energy put in by the petrol motor in the first place, and that should be more widely realised.

It's cars themselves that are the problem, all IC powered cars including the Prius, and they need to be used less.
Flecc, you mentioned a Prius battery 'shock to come' in a previous post - from that I inferred that you were supporting the industry myth that Prius has untold battery issues that the manufacturers fail to highlight.

And in the real world, cars exist and are not going anywhere in the SHORT term. Given that, I believe we should support a compromise approach - hybrids such as Prius reduce CO2 emissions and provide good urban fuel economy, while still operating in the road and fuel infrastructure that exists today.

I am a strong supporter of environmental responsibility. I am not naive enough to assume that driving a Prius is some sort of environmental panacea. Neither is an all electric car, or an electric bike - they all need to be recharged, and 9 times out of 10 that electricity is generated through fossil fuel consumption.

I guess I am a believer in the 'every little helps' approach. That is why I will be switching my commute from my Prius to an electric bike when I can...
 

electric.mike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 16, 2007
342
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grimsby
DBCohen

guess I am a believer in the 'every little helps' approach. That is why I will be switching my commute from my Prius to an electric bike when I can...
i would say i am with you at this stage of my life, my household carbon footprint is well bellow average and this is with a solid fuel stove, i create my own balance trying via sensible use of things to aim for a reduction of pollutants.
i have worked hard all my life and now at 58 and semi retired i intend to use my campervan to enjoy the countryside i want to save, but i use electric bikes for local runs to try and keep my polluting down to a minimum.
when you consider what my wife and i did last week, we worked 3 days moving top brand cars of the docks, and we both moved over 2 million pounds worth of cars its going to be a long time changing.

mike
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Flecc, you mentioned a Prius battery 'shock to come' in a previous post - from that I inferred that you were supporting the industry myth that Prius has untold battery issues that the manufacturers fail to highlight.

And in the real world, cars exist and are not going anywhere in the SHORT term. Given that, I believe we should support a compromise approach - hybrids such as Prius reduce CO2 emissions and provide good urban fuel economy, while still operating in the road and fuel infrastructure that exists today.

I am a strong supporter of environmental responsibility. I am not naive enough to assume that driving a Prius is some sort of environmental panacea. Neither is an all electric car, or an electric bike - they all need to be recharged, and 9 times out of 10 that electricity is generated through fossil fuel consumption.

I guess I am a believer in the 'every little helps' approach. That is why I will be switching my commute from my Prius to an electric bike when I can...
No, I hadn't fallen for the myth as you've probably gathered. I think the main contribution the Prius makes is that it draws attention to the failings of ordinary car design and the emphasis on performance in those.

As every engineer, chemist and physicist knows, conversion of one energy source into another involves loss, and the Prius does just that. It follows that an IC car should be able to do better than one which uses any conversion, while still using energy recovery. In fact some of today's cars are very close indeed to what the Prius does in real world terms. Most Prius owners seem to get around 47 mpg, and the claimed 65 mpg seems generally out of reach for users. There are plenty of IC cars that also give 47 mpg in real world conditions without utilising any recovery, including my Skoda Fabia 1.2 litre. I'm sure if it's VW designers had concentrated less on achieving it's near 100 mph to match the markletplace and more on economy, it could have proven the point I make on conversion losses.
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JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
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Stockport, SK7
Until we get something like a weekly cycle show (akin to Top Gear) with good presenters aimed at commuters and sports equally, and having a good section on electric bikes, and that refers to cars in the way Top Gear refers to cycles, I cant see how Joe Bloggs will care less.

Maybe they should have a section on bike stunts to encourage take up (along with races across London against expensive sports cars)

Wouldnt that be nice
 

Ian

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2007
1,333
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Leicester LE4, UK.
The comments by Flecc and Ian are indications of how successful these lobbyists have been at spreading fear-mongering rumours about hidden costs in hybrids.
Hi David,

the comment I made on the life & cost of the Prius battery wasn't influenced by any lobbying by anti-motoring organisations but purely on my own and others experiences of the life and cost of various battery types and by factual information from battery manufacturers data. I don't know how vital battery capacity is to the function of the Prius system, it could be that the vehicle has additional capacity to compensate for the inevitable ageing, or it could be that the manufacturers expect to have to replace batteries under warranty and have considered this in their business plan.

When I made the comment I was unaware of the 8 year warranty and assumed the replacement cost would have to be borne by the customer as in previous vehicles, obviously the warranty makes the car much more attractive from a total cost point of view.

However none of the above changes the facts that batteries of all types are expensive and as many have found to their cost can have a very limited life, often with no support from a warranty.

Ian.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I guess I am a believer in the 'every little helps' approach. That is why I will be switching my commute from my Prius to an electric bike when I can...
I agree and that's very much my approach, as my car mileage shows, typically around 400 miles per annum and never reaching 1000. That's why I wouldn't go to Presteigne. Things are not quite as bad as the 9 times out 10 fossil fuel electricity you mentioned though, since about 20% of our power is still nuclear from our own plants and importation from France. Add to that the 3% or so of renewable at the moment and things won't be too black when we build new nuclear capacity and grow that renewable figure to 10% as planned. Then our e-bikes will be an even better alternative and we'll be able to manufacture hydrogen for larger vehicles in less damaging ways.
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DBCohen

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May 2, 2007
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Manchester
In fact some of today's cars are very close indeed to what the Prius does in real world terms. Most Prius owners seem to get around 47 mpg, and the claimed 65 mpg seems generally out of reach for users. There are plenty of IC cars that also give 47 mpg in real world conditions without utilising any recovery, including my Skoda Fabia 1.2 litre.
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Well, in my view fuel economy is not the real issue. That issue is emissions - CO2 output is our principal concern today, given the effect on the environment. As such, fuel economy only really comes in to it as related to those emissions. Of course, those anti-hybrid lobbyists do like to bang on about the Prius not reaching 65 mpg, while ignoring the fact that those figures are based on rolling road tests and that NO car on the market achieves those figures on the road.

My Prius is reporting an average MPG over 10000 miles of 49.6 - yet the CO2 emissions for that are 104 g/km against the 140 g/km of your Fabia. And that is with a larger car, automatic transmission and aircon running a fair bit.

But the fact is, for both of us we are running high mpg, low emission cars and looking to minimise out car journeys with bicycle use. A good start, I'll warrant. Hopefully, more people will look to match these attempts in the future.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I agree David, the point you make about my Fabia's somewhat higher emissions was exactly what I meant about the traditional car designers needing to do better.

However, I don't bang on about about the mpg in isolation, I just don't see the Prius as being a hybrid at all, since it's not a dual fuel car as I've pointed out, it just diverts some of it's power and uses it later in a different form.

So if I was anti-hybrid, I couldn't be against the Prius, it being a petrol car. :)
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Flying Kiwi

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Dec 25, 2006
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Well, in my view fuel economy is not the real issue. That issue is emissions
I admire any efforts to reduce CO2 emmissions but I'd certainly be much more of a fan of the Toyota brand had they not aborted their electric car development in favour of the hybrid. I recommend anyone who's not seen that DVD I linked to earlier watch it. It was an eye opener for a few issues to me including Hydrogen fuel cell technology - so much for that angle with the Swizzbee or that Hydrogen motorbike shown on TV a while back. The good thing about purely electric transport is that it has the capacity to be zero emmission if the right source of charging electricity is used such as photovoltaic panels or wind turbines, something not possible with hybrids which are indeed a compromise answer. The technology is already there for fully electric so why are those car manufacturers waiting?

At least muddying of the waters isn't so much of an issue with electric bikes and although it's expensive, there are also currently photovoltaics ideally suited to charging electric bike batteries in the same time as current mains chargers.
 

Ian

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Apr 1, 2007
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Some Simple Facts Relevant To Electric Cars

Most of our e-bikes have a max output of approx 0.6kw.(200W nominal)

A typical small petrol car has a max output of approx 60kw.

The replacement battery cost for an e-bike under the most favorable conditions will be approx 3p/mile.(Or more)

Therefore all other things being equal we can have an electric car carrying 350kgs of batteries with a range of 20-30 miles and a running cost of £3 per mile + the cost of the electricity.

If the above car were to have a range comparable with its petrol counterpart its battery capacity would have to be in the order of 500kWh. No existing technologies could deliver a battery of that capacity weighing much under 3 tons, and a 10 hour overnight charge would require a 50kW supply, that's consumption on an industrial scale.

OK, so the above is an over simplification but it serves highlight the fact the the main barrier to electric cars is battery capacity and cost. The only way it could ever become feasible is for consumers to settle for much lower performance vehicles, which I fear there's little chance of in these image conscious times where size seems to matter a lot.

Car manufacturers are in business primarily to make money rather than save the planet, they know they have a captive audience with 4x4's and the like and I fear that is where the focus will remain.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Ian puts the picture in a nutshell, the fact being that any fully electric vehicle that has to carry it's own power source has it's performance crippled at the outset, the larger the vehicle, the more impossible that position becomes.

Only a technological miracle could change that, and there isn't the faintest shred of evidence of one being possible.
 

Flying Kiwi

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Dec 25, 2006
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all other things being equal we can have an electric car carrying 350kgs of batteries with a range of 20-30 miles and a running cost of £3 per mile + the cost of the electricity.
Clearly you haven't viewed the DVD about the EV1. It was far better than that and I think the range was about 100 miles (far more than the average motorist does in a day and or even an electric bike). I realise you were using a hypothetical example but those figures are wildly off. The limiting factor for ordinary everyday use is not battery technology (as much as the oil companies and other lobby groups would have us believe) but is actually the general motoring publics reluctance to accept a range below what they can get with a petrol car, even though a higher range than what current technology offers is not required for most car users on a day to day basis. I can understand this unwillingness to be potentially restricted and it's one of the reasons I made sure my electric bike will get up even the steepest of hills I may come across. The solution for people who want to be able to cover long journeys beyond the batteries range is either to plan a charging break for a few hours mid journey or use alternative forms of transport such as public transport or a rental car on the odd occassion higher range is needed.

Car manufacturers are in business primarily to make money rather than save the planet, they know they have a captive audience with 4x4's and the like and I fear that is where the focus will remain.
I think the public is becomming more educated about such things. Certainly things like multi-tiered congestion charging and scaled parking permit fees are helping the cause for electric cars. Of course the electric bike is preferred over even electric cars where practical though.
 

DBCohen

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May 2, 2007
155
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Manchester
The limiting factor for ordinary everyday use is not battery technology (as much as the oil companies and other lobby groups would have us believe) but is actually the general motoring publics reluctance to accept a range below what they can get with a petrol car, even though a higher range than what current technology offers is not required for most car users on a day to day basis. I can understand this unwillingness to be potentially restricted and it's one of the reasons I made sure my electric bike will get up even the steepest of hills I may come across. The solution for people who want to be able to cover long journeys beyond the batteries range is either to plan a charging break for a few hours mid journey or use alternative forms of transport such as public transport or a rental car on the odd occassion higher range is needed.
Right, this might come across like a rant, so before I start, let me make it clear that I respect EVERYONE's views. I am not looking to start a fight. OK, with that out there, let me say...

Oh, come on! This is the typical blue sky argument that the most ardent green supporters have been espousing for years - and it hasn't worked, and never will!

Do you honestly think that people sit in traffic jams on the motorways daily because they enjoy it? Because it is fun? Because they hate being at home, and would rather be cooped up in a tin box breathing bad air?

With today's level of taxation, fuel prices, road pricing, car prices and congestion people still use the car. Why? Because for many journeys, there is no viable alternative.

I need to visit my clients - I work as a consultant. They pay me £x a day to give them my advice. They expect, when paying me, for me to arrive at their location when they need me. They will not pay for me to spend many hours travelling in 100-mile chunks across the country, recharging as I go. If you know of a way to universally change those attitudes immediately while at the same time implementing the required infrastructure, while not requiring martial law (!) - let's hear it.

Now, as I hope my previous posts demonstrate, I am environmentally responsible - I drive a vehicle that is low emissions, high MPG, and I avoid using it when I can. I am switching to an e-bike for my commute when in the office. I travel by train when I can. But many of the journeys I need to make for work have to be car only, because they cannot be reached easily by train or alternative. That's also ignoring the fact that most car alternatives are FAR more expensive, including the train.

But, effecting change is a GRADUAL process. You cannot ever expect to get support to throw out an entire country's infrastructure overnight, expect people to radically change their lifestyles (especially if they perceive it as being for the worse). I typically find that people who promote such approaches have the luxury of having a particular lifestyle that suits those approaches. Bully for them - but they can't just impose those values on everyone else, unless you want to live in a dictatorship rather than democracy.

I say these things in full knowledge that we may be creating environmental catastrophe - but if you really want to effect change, you have to gently ease people in to it, while arguing strongly for it. Our politicians have never had the will to even start.

So I'd rather see the Toyota Prius approach - proving that a car can be more emission sensitive than it's peers, while retaining the usefulness of the tool. Let's focus on getting us switched to an environmentally aware, make small steps attitude and economy - then you have a platform on which to build more decisive change. And maybe, those small steps in the meantime will start to make a difference.

It does make me laugh - one car manufacturer invest billions in research on a vehicle that is a definitive environmental improvement, and then rather than leaving it as a concept car, actually puts it in to production and starts to apply the same technology to the rest of their range - and instead of embracing it as an intial success, improvement and a vindication of their argument, the green lobby poo poos it as not good enough and continues to live in a fantasy world. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

The problem with many really ardent environmentalists (and I am not accusing anyone on this forum of this) is that they have a political agenda that goes far beyond pure environemental respect. They actually dislike industrialisation, mechanisation and many of the trappings of our Western society. They seem to favour a far more agrarian lifestyle, and want to sweep our society away in its favour. Here's the news, people - that stuff is hard work, harder than any of us have ever known. Go and ask an African farmer scratching a living for his family fifteen hours a day what he thinks of it! Ask him if he wants to reject the car, when he needs to get his crops to market or his sick child to hospital!

It is this radical subtext that has lead to marginalisation of environmental issues in the political debate - and that is to our worldwide detriment.

OK, rant mode off. I just am saddened that during my lifetime the Green movement has not been more effective by being realistic in their arguments and proposals - perhaps if they had we might live in a better world today.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I agree with very nearly all of what you've said David, and I'm certainly not a Green (I'm pro nuclear for starters), nor am I a "back to nature" fanatic. But I see nothing wrong in pointing out failings in what has been done so far to improve things. The alternative can so easily be complacency.

In essence, the fact I can be critical doesn't mean that something is useless, it just means it could be better, and the stimulus of criticism is what makes things better.
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Flying Kiwi

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Dec 25, 2006
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Buckinghamshire
Oh, come on! This is the typical blue sky argument that the most ardent green supporters have been espousing for years - and it hasn't worked, and never will!
Just as well I'm not a green supporter then, although I do take environmental issues seriously. I don't understand why it won't work and certainly I'm never going to say never (well, other than there). All it takes is people willing to go to a little inconvenience.

Do you honestly think that people sit in traffic jams on the motorways daily because they enjoy it?
Not at all, what would make you think that? Just because I think a well designed electric car is superior in most ways to a hybrid (and I'm lumping hydrogen fuel cell cars in with hybrids) doesn't mean I don’t see a need for cars with IC engines to be used in some essential situations by a minority.

With today's level of taxation, fuel prices, road pricing, car prices and congestion people still use the car. Why? Because for many journeys, there is no viable alternative.
You've hit the nail on the head there :eek: Of course it's only a minority of people who will need the extra range that petrol/diesel offers (whether it be in the form of a hybrid or otherwise) on a day to day (or even fairly frequent) basis.

I need to visit my clients
I travel a great deal in my work also. Just like you I sometimes travel over 100 miles away from home and sometimes to places more than just a couple of miles from a railway station and I don't have a car at all. I always have the option of taking on a particular task and sometimes I reject them just because they're so difficult to get to though - how do I manage? Through a combination of public transport and my bike (with spare battery if reqd). Yes it usually takes longer than a car, yes it's not as convenient and yes it sometimes costs more but it is very feasible for most of my work. I put my suit jacket in my pannier along with my tie etc and change when I get to the general area (or depending on the client, in their company loo).

I work as a consultant. They pay me £x a day to give them my advice. They expect, when paying me, for me to arrive at their location when they need me. They will not pay for me to spend many hours travelling in 100-mile chunks across the country, recharging as I go. If you know of a way to universally change those attitudes immediately while at the same time implementing the required infrastructure, while not requiring martial law (!) - let's hear it.
Just as I don't foresee electric ambulances or fire engines in the near future, I understand that those with a frequent need to cover several hundred miles for a rapid response won't find an electric vehicle suitable. I put it to you that this is a minority of motorists however.

Now, as I hope my previous posts demonstrate, I am environmentally responsible - I drive a vehicle that is low emissions, high MPG, and I avoid using it when I can. I am switching to an e-bike for my commute when in the office. I travel by train when I can. But many of the journeys I need to make for work have to be car only, because they cannot be reached easily by train or alternative. That's also ignoring the fact that most car alternatives are FAR more expensive, including the train.
You've made that clear, along with the fact that you'd be among a minority of motorists in using your car that way. I won't go into rant mode about the trains but suffice to say I agree with your findings on price!

But, effecting change is a GRADUAL process. You cannot ever expect to get support to throw out an entire country's infrastructure overnight, expect people to radically change their lifestyles (especially if they perceive it as being for the worse).
Agreed with the proviso that it's important to distinguish between the situations where it's essential to take it slow and gradually and those where it's convenient for parties with a vested interest to delay any changes for as long as possible. I think what we currently have from many automakers is a clear case of the latter. I used to work (indirectly) for a automaker and although they provided an electric version of a particular model overseas, it wasn’t sold here (despite numerous enquiries to customer services asking what they provided in terms of electric cars). Other than the fact they’d need to make it UK compliant (including in a RHD form), they weren’t in any rush to introduce it here and we still don’t have it.

I typically find that people who promote such approaches have the luxury of having a particular lifestyle that suits those approaches. Bully for them - but they can't just impose those values on everyone else, unless you want to live in a dictatorship rather than democracy.
Agreed and you are right in that in my above example I have the choice of declining particular jobs if they're to difficult to get to (although taxis from the nearest train/bus station have been utilised in the past).

I say these things in full knowledge that we may be creating environmental catastrophe - but if you really want to effect change, you have to gently ease people in to it, while arguing strongly for it. Our politicians have never had the will to even start.
Certainly those in the US with influence at the time of the EV1 didn't seem to want to effect change.

So I'd rather see the Toyota Prius approach - proving that a car can be more emission sensitive than it's peers, while retaining the usefulness of the tool.
If it weren't for the fact that many hybrid manufacturers are putting all their eggs in one basket with alternative fuels i.e. hybrid or petrol/diesel only with no fully electric version, I'd agree but they should be providing both options. How much more design work can it really involve to put a mains charger, larger battery and charging point on what already has electric driving motors and associated control circuitry etc? You can't tell me that's a major ask beyond what they’re capable of. In many regards, there’s more work involved in designing a hybrid (and certainly more parts sales opportunities too).

Let's focus on getting us switched to an environmentally aware, make small steps attitude and economy - then you have a platform on which to build more decisive change. And maybe, those small steps in the meantime will start to make a difference.
Call me idealistic but I say if you want to adopt that approach, it's your choice. Personally, I'd prefer they go the whole hog by offering fully electric for those who want them (others can continue with hybrids) and the sooner the better.

It does make me laugh - one car manufacturer invest billions in research on a vehicle that is a definitive environmental improvement, and then rather than leaving it as a concept car, actually puts it in to production and starts to apply the same technology to the rest of their range - and instead of embracing it as an intial success, improvement and a vindication of their argument, the green lobby poo poos it as not good enough and continues to live in a fantasy world. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
It will come as no surprise to those who know my views on hub motor vs. crank drive through the gears on electric bikes, that I think there's room for both types, hybrid and fully electric. I get annoyed when I see manufacturers attempting to claim that a compromise answer is actually the panacea we'd sought all along. As long as there's demand for both, they should be attempting to meet that demand, rather than attempting to steer idealists towards a compromise solution.

It is this radical subtext that has lead to marginalisation of environmental issues in the political debate - and that is to our worldwide detriment.
What determines a radical subtext and how that differs from an idealistic viewpoint? Surely if automakers make a serious effort to develop fully electric vehicles while continuing to provide hybrids, then both sides are satisfied?

I just am saddened that during my lifetime the Green movement has not been more effective by being realistic in their arguments and proposals - perhaps if they had we might live in a better world today.
But it's their fault for failing to convince people that what they see is realistic and achievable then. Additionally (and importantly) they've also failed to put their ways across as viable options and I repeat no I'm not a greenie.
 

DBCohen

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May 2, 2007
155
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Manchester
So, FK, you believe that manufacturers should offer short-range electrics as well as other vehicles.

I believe that the reason they don't is because they do not believe they will sell. You talk about demand - their seems to have been little demand for all-electric vehicles, with the exception of the EV1 enthusiasts and the milk dairies (!).

Hybrid vehicles such as the Prius (and I call it a hybrid has two transmission inputs, Flecc, not because it has a single fuel source - a point of semantics that I feel is not overly relevant in the context of emissions) have shown that their is a demand for them - Toyota cannot make them fast enough. Indeed, it has spurred one of the few changes in the US motor industry not forced through by legislation for years - US manufacturers are now looking at hybrid transmissions and regeneration, and bringing such vehicels to market.

Now there is a difference between demand (the wish of a group of individuals) and econmic demand (enough of those individuals to make sales of such an item profitable - or if not, at least an excruciatingly loss).

I also find it hard to believe that Toyota, now the biggest car maker on the planet, did not evaluate all electric as an option and reject it - presumably on economic or engineering grounds. Are you qualified enough, FK, in matters of manufacturing economics and electric vehicle engineering to realistically challenge that view?

If so, please share your argument - though I would suggest a new thread. If not, then it is as fruitless as wishing for a world where antimatter starships cross parsecs in hours.

And the difference between a radical subtext and an idealistic viewpoint? Merely the degree to which you can accept that not everyone sees the world as you do. Typically measured by your own level of fanaticism as seen by others. And that is my humble opinion, and I accuse nobody in this debate on this forum of that.

However, I did once know a former board member of Greenpeace. He left them in the early nineties, disgusted by the level of zeal and fanticism that the organisation had become dominated by. These were people who would do anything to get their point across, even if it meant media spin or dishonest statements. They felt that the French attack on the Rainbow Warrior justified this sort of approach, and were militant, irrational and unpleasant. They were one step away from being eco-terrorists, in his view.

It is those who I accuse of a radical subtext, that for many years have lead to green issues being seen to be wacky or the domain of nutcases.