Brexit, for once some facts.

soundwave

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Without wanting to derail an informative argument, something caught my (more than a little autistic) eye: spring and 22kwh (nominal 25.9kwh) zoe are similar sized (with similar weighing battery packs). And evidently neither are weighed down by unnecessary crumple zones. But the spring weighs 970kg )very little for an ev) and 22kwh zoe 1550kg. Wtf did renault add to zoes?
might be the new air foam system tank.
 
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Danidl

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I'm up to date on this as well and have owned a Sodastream, but it soon became yet another not worthwhile discarded household gadget as almost all those sold quickly became. Too inconvenient and entirely unnecessary when all could afford the ready made and better articles everywhere. Bottled gas is a very different issue from batteries of course.

You are obviously an extreme optimist on technological progress, but I'm a pessimist. The overwhelming numbers of failures to progress proves me right, most especially with batteries.
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"Bottled gas is a very different issue from batteries of course." .. My point is that it is not.. It's the energy one I buying and the bottle is the carrier.. Perhaps a closer example more contemporary and probably closer in price per unit, would be Laser Printer Cartridges or inkjet cartridges . In my model the cost of an aluminium pellet fill would be about 60 to 100 quid or euro,and give 1200km range .
 

flecc

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Without wanting to derail an informative argument, something caught my (more than a little autistic) eye: spring and 22kwh (nominal 25.9kwh) zoe are similar sized (with similar weighing battery packs). And evidently neither are weighed down by unnecessary crumple zones. But the spring weighs 970kg )very little for an ev) and 22kwh zoe 1550kg. Wtf did renault add to zoes?
Yes, the Spring uses old Renault parts so that is the same early battery. The extra weight is all the safety gubbins that has been crippling cars for years now. Originally a family Ford Escort weighed around 3/4 of a ton, but ended up years later as a Ford Focus weighing far over a ton.

Quadricycles dodge all that performance crippling weight and a bit more besides, until one of today's obese families get in of course.
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flecc

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In my model the cost of an aluminium pellet fill would be about 60 to 100 quid or euro,and give 1200km range .
But they are mythical, like so many of the other things you keep suggesting in argument. Just dreams, like all the other weekly breakthrough announcements that hardly ever transpire.
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Woosh

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"Bottled gas is a very different issue from batteries of course." .. My point is that it is not.. It's the energy one I buying and the bottle is the carrier.. Perhaps a closer example more contemporary and probably closer in price per unit, would be Laser Printer Cartridges or inkjet cartridges . In my model the cost of an aluminium pellet fill would be about 60 to 100 quid or euro,and give 1200km range .
the gas inside your bottle costs very little, that's the difference.
 
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Woosh

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6.9million European nationals have applied to the EUSS. I am surprised at the number.
Are there 6.9 millions Brits living in the EU? That may explain why so many voted for brexit.
 

Danidl

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But they are mythical, like so many of the other things you keep suggesting in argument. Just dreams, like all the other weekly breakthrough announcements that hardly ever transpire.
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Nope... . The only reason these are not yet implemented is neither technological nor economic..but inertia and the time taken to set up infrastructure.. Up to now the fossil fuel economy has been dominant and it is remarkably recent for this to be questioned, then it takes time to have turbines, PV , etc put in place ..and critically ..large distance power grids. Meanwhile Musk with his clever sideways use of Laptop battery packs, stole a march on the competition. In doing so Tesla basically nvented a new electric motor technology ..
You don't get electrical energy storage solutions until you actually have excess electrical energy to store. ..And we are not even there yet.
But coming back to your other more fundemental point ..that the younger generation are disenchanted with personal automobile ownership ... Well I can agree with you on that, particularly if they live in urban areas. If I lived in central London ,I wouldn't want a car, and in Manhattan , one would need to be brain dead to have one. My two children living in Dublin don't have cars, whereas the one living locally has one. I suspect if I was in St Ives ,a car would be necessary.
Whether it is British Government policy to restrict car ownership ..I really don't have an opinion. But EU policy is to increase the quality of public transportation,as the quality of local buses in Germany and of trains in Spain show ... Unfortunately Rural France lags in both
 

flecc

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you actually have excess electrical energy to store. ..And we are not even there yet.
Actually we are there and have been for many years. During the night we have a huge excess of electricity and that is why e-car makers equip their models with one or two charge timers to take advantage of that cheap current. And why suppliers like Octopus have e-car tariffs. And why V to G is attracting so much attention as a load balancer, already operational in Denmark and on trial here.

We only have a little over 600 thousand pure battery e-cars at the moment, but I'm sure we can increase that to at least 6 million using the existing night current capacity.

Meanwhile for the more problematic daytime long journey charging we are relying on a combination of mains, solar panel supplementation and battery bank storage.
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Danidl

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Actually we are there and have been for many years. During the night we have a huge excess of electricity and that is why e-car makers equip their models with one or two charge timers to take advantage of that cheap current. And why suppliers like Octopus have e-car tariffs. And why V to G is attracting so much attention as a load balancer, already operational in Denmark and on trial here.

We only have a little over 600 thousand pure battery e-cars at the moment, but I'm sure we can increase that to at least 6 million using the existing night current capacity.

Meanwhile for the more problematic daytime long journey charging we are relying on a combination of mains, solar panel supplementation and battery bank storage.
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We really don't yet have that excess.. Yes the Grid is not running at peak demand during those hours ,and therefore the more expensive fast response time GaS generators are idle, and the slower response coal fired and nuclear stations are on lower demand..so it became sensible to offer off-peak night rates..but there was still a production cost in terms of fuel...and it was mostly fossil fuel,So that made made sense as it increased the revenue stream. The game changer is Wind, and the wind can blow at night...The more wind in the system, the greater the requirement for either a wider international grid or storage.
I am not arguing against nighttime charging of cars or anything else ..In fact the logic of charging up storage systems at night is inescapable..
 

jonathan.agnew

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Yes, the Spring uses old Renault parts so that is the same early battery. The extra weight is all the safety gubbins that has been crippling cars for years now. Originally a family Ford Escort weighed around 3/4 of a ton, but ended up years later as a Ford Focus weighing far over a ton.

Quadricycles dodge all that performance crippling weight and a bit more besides, until one of today's obese families get in of course.
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However, the zoe scored 0 stars on ncap compared to springs 1 star (and it seems structural, see that article I cited, about intrusion into cabin so there can't be much in the line of gubbins that matter in a zoe). It just seems a vast difference (almost the weight of a 100kwh tesla battery or the entire forward pack of the allblacks, or six baby elephants, or a male holstein cow, or a gaur, or three cafe racers or a cubic meter of snow. Anyway, I'm not about to disassemble it so it will probably remain a mystery
 

Danidl

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aluminum air battery array
Aluminum-air battery pack (Courtesy of Phinergy)
PUBLISHED FEB 21, 2022 2:05 PM BY HARRY VALENTINE



During February 2022, the price of a metric ton of lithium carbonate salts briefly went over $69,000, up from $9,600 a year earlier. This spike is raising the cost of lithium batteries. A cost-competitive energy storage technology from Israel involving an aluminum-air battery offers high energy storage capacity and can be housed inside a standard 20-foot shipping container.
Introduction
Over the past 20 years, scientists and chemistry have undertaken research into advancing electrochemical energy storage. For well over a century, the lead-acid battery that combines lead, lead oxide and sulfuric acid has been the leading rechargeable electrochemical battery technology and is widely used in the automotive industry. There have been several advances in electrochemical energy storage technology intended for stationary grid-scale applications and also for mobile propulsive applications.
Some of the large-scale electrochemical, grid-scale battery technologies can operate from inside shipping containers in stationary applications and provide for large-vehicle propulsive applications. Such is the case with aluminum-air battery technology from Israel, which can store 4,800kWh and deliver a steady 240kW (320 hp) from within the footprint of a standard 20-foot container. For equivalent weight and volume, it stores more energy than any of vanadium flow, liquid metal or zinc-bromine-gel technologies. It outperforms lithium-ion technology on the basis of cost and storage capacity.
Battery Chemistry
The construction of a direct-current battery combines an anode and cathode, with the anode usually accounting up to 70 percent of battery weight while the cathode accounts for around five percent of total weight. An aluminum-air battery combines an anode made from pure lightweight aluminum with an air-electrode that replaces the cathode that operates on oxygen from ambient atmospheric air. The combination of light weight and chemistry allows it to provide over three times the energy density of more costly lithium-ion batteries. During operation, the aluminum depletes and produces a byproduct of aluminum hydroxide, Al(OH)3 or H3AlO3.
While the battery cannot be recharged, it is fully recyclable and can be re-manufactured for a repeated lifecycle. When an aluminum-air battery reaches depletion stage, it is replaced with either a newly manufactured unit or a reconditioned unit. There are a variety of chemical methods by which to extract pure aluminum from the aluminum hydroxide contained in a depleted battery. As a result, the aluminum-air battery becomes continually recyclable with fully re-useable versions of the original batteries repeatedly providing multiple life-cycles of providing the same density of electrical energy.
Maritime Propulsion
The capital cost of the aluminum-air battery as well as the long-term recycling and remanufacturing cost make it competitive against lithium batteries. Groups of containerized batteries optimally operate at steady constant output over extended periods. In maritime operations, battery containers need to be quick and easy to access, install and replace. The battery containers would sustain vessel propulsion in inland waterway and coastal service involving tug-barge operation, with easily-accessible batteries carried aboard a large tug vessel and a barge coupled to it.
A battery-electric tug built to 300 feet in length with an 85-foot beam and 10-foot draft would displace over 7,000 tons of water. It could carry 120 battery containers to provide 576,000kWh of power to propel a vessel requiring 3,000kW (4,000 hp) at 10 knots for 180 hours. The batteries would deliver up to 190 hours of service prior to depletion and exchange for fresh batteries. In waterway service, a standard Mississippi towboat could carry 32 containers of batteries weighing 810 tons with 153,600kWh of power.
Aluminum-air batteries incur zero degradation when not in use over prolonged periods. During operation, the chemistry prevents buildup of heat, indirectly preventing the explosions and fires that can occur with lithium-ion technology. Housed in a 40-foot container, lithium-ion technology would typically provide 3,200KWh at considerably higher initial capital cost that aluminum-air technology. Depleted lithium batteries also incur much higher recycling cost that competing battery technologies.
Battery Recycling Legislation
The most popular battery in North America is the lead-acid battery, and legislation is in effect that requires the recycling of that battery technology. Some 99 percent of lead acid batteries in North America are recycled. There is scope to extend the legal precedent to include other battery technologies. A depleted aluminum-air battery is fully recyclable, allowing for the emergence of commercial enterprises that remanufacture such batteries for continual re-use in transportation propulsion and stationary energy storage applications. Barges of semi-depleted aluminum-air batteries could be moored at port to supply local power requirements before batteries are sent for recycling.
Conclusions
Aluminum-air battery technology has been under development over several years. It offers higher energy storage density at lower capital cost than lithium-ion technology, and the entire battery and its chemistry can be recycled and remanufactured after depletion of energy. The battery is best suited for use in applications where it can easily be removed and re-installed with minimal complication, like containerized power solutions for vessels.
.. Article from a Maritime Website of a year ago...
 
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soundwave

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flecc

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We really don't yet have that excess..
We do, simply because the wind generators have to be generously compensated for every switch off**, so keeping the all turbines spinning even for low income from cheap night e-car charging pays well. The nationwide switching to LED street lighting is increasing the night current surplus. And of course all have an eye on the potential of minimal cost storage of V to G.

** They wouldn't have invested in our large turbine fleet without that compensation guarantee.
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Danidl

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We do, simply because the wind generators have to be generously compensated for every switch off**, so keeping the all turbines spinning even for low income from cheap night e-car charging pays well. The nationwide switching to LED street lighting is increasing the night current surplus. And of course all have an eye on the potential of minimal cost storage of V to G.

** They wouldn't have invested in our large turbine fleet without that compensation guarantee.
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We are not YET there with these things ..it's happening and is incremental,and certainly in the short term Lithium is filling the void, but it is an expensive solution. These other combinations are starting to happen and unlike the age of oil there will not be a single solution ..but a variety of materials will be used for storage. The only certainty is that the motors driving the wheels will be electric
 

Danidl

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the gas inside your bottle costs very little, that's the difference.
The gas Is as expensive as the cylinder.. I recall that the deposit for the cylinder ..when last I purchased one was about 25 euro and the gas was about the same ..so a 49 euro cost. Gas refills are now about 35euro. . Maybe the bottle was subsidised, maybe not ..but in France where there was plenty of competition , You had to get the same brand of refill as the bottle. In the version of Aluminium battery I am envisageing, , the bottle would be a array of aluminium metal foils or pellets inside a plastic housing..again not dissimilar to laser printer cartridges, but bigger. It is the aluminium metal which is the fuel and gets consumed. Ask yourself the very simple question ..how many rolls of Turkey Aluminium Foil can you buy in Tesco for 100 euro?...and what weight it is of metal.
 

flecc

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Aluminium battery I am envisageing, , the bottle would be a array of aluminium metal foils or pellets inside a plastic housing..again not dissimilar to laser printer cartridges, but bigger. It is the aluminium metal which is the fuel and gets consumed. Ask yourself the very simple question ..how many rolls of Turkey Aluminium Foil can you buy in Tesco for 100 euro?...and what weight it is of metal.
Oh dear, Russia is a major producer of aluminium, especially foil. On top of gas and oil, that's another energy prospect up the Swannee.

"In late February 2022, the price of aluminum was already at an all-time high. Russian aluminum production has not been affected, but due to the sanctions, exports are becoming significantly more difficult, and aluminum is becoming increasingly scarce – so much so that a complete halt in supply cannot be ruled out." 3 Aug 2022

Not to mention the recent explosion at the Chinese Yunnan aluminium factory which knocked that out.
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jonathan.agnew

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Oh dear, Russia is a major producer of aluminium, especially foil. On top of gas and oil, that's another energy prospect up the Swannee.

"In late February 2022, the price of aluminum was already at an all-time high. Russian aluminum production has not been affected, but due to the sanctions, exports are becoming significantly more difficult, and aluminum is becoming increasingly scarce – so much so that a complete halt in supply cannot be ruled out." 3 Aug 2022

Not to mention the recent explosion at the Chinese Yunnan aluminium factory which knocked that out.
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Ah, did someone mention the war? It is going remarkably well for Russia
 

Danidl

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Oh dear, Russia is a major producer of aluminium, especially foil. On top of gas and oil, that's another energy prospect up the Swannee.

"In late February 2022, the price of aluminum was already at an all-time high. Russian aluminum production has not been affected, but due to the sanctions, exports are becoming significantly more difficult, and aluminum is becoming increasingly scarce – so much so that a complete halt in supply cannot be ruled out." 3 Aug 2022

Not to mention the recent explosion at the Chinese Yunnan aluminium factory which knocked that out.
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Flecc..You are trying hard.,I grant you that. Of Course EVERYTHING in th extractive industries sector shot up late February 2022..and for an obvious reason. A reason the Russians were producing lots of Aluminium ,was they have lots of fossil fuel energy and making Aluminium is very energy intensive. Recycling of the already extracted Aluminium hydroxides ,as the waste product of Aluminium Air Batteries , back into metallic form will require a lot of energy ..which is what you get from those idle Wind turbines off the Dogger at 2:00AM. The fact of course is that the world will factor in its production of aluminium and other materials without including Russia.
 

flecc

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Flecc..You are trying hard.,I grant you that. Of Course EVERYTHING in th extractive industries sector shot up late February 2022..and for an obvious reason. A reason the Russians were producing lots of Aluminium ,was they have lots of fossil fuel energy and making Aluminium is very energy intensive. Recycling of the already extracted Aluminium hydroxides ,as the waste product of Aluminium Air Batteries , back into metallic form will require a lot of energy ..which is what you get from those idle Wind turbines off the Dogger at 2:00AM. The fact of course is that the world will factor in its production of aluminium and other materials without including Russia.
I wind you up and there you go again, teaching granny to suck eggs by telling me things I've long known!

A correction, much of the world's aluminium production, including Russia's, relies on hydro energy. A quote from six years ago:

"Rusal, the Russian aluminium giant and worlds second largest aluminium producer says it will phase out its remaining 10 pc reliance on power stations driven by natural gas and nuclear in favour of renewable hydro electricity".
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Woosh

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We should go for geothermal. It is underdeveloped at the moment and we could be quite good at drilling very deep Wells.
 
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