Brexit, for once some facts.

[jonathan.agnew]

If the USA would only change course and recognise the rights of others to be politically different, I woudn't even mention root causes.
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[/QUOTE]
Tutu had a saying - "if you're neutral in situations of injustice you have chosen the side of the oppressor". He was referring to Maggie and ronald's careful rationalisation of apartheid. Under the guise of being Liberal, I think you're doing the same, trying to rationalise injustice, oppression. We all rationalise of course. But we all also have to live with ourselves in the end and our integrity, or lack of it.

 

[Woosh]

Although the bean counters seem to have leashed the two slobbering, defecating tories for now

Kwasi Kwarteng set to make second U-turn in two days

He previously insisted he would wait to publish the details until November 23, but now it looks like he is expected to lay out plans early.

metro.co.uk

I actually am happier now that treasury orthodoxy is making a come back.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I actually am happier now that treasury orthodoxy is making a come back.

I have mixed feelings - we have an invasive cancer (aka the conservative party) that has been breaking down our normal function (infrastructure, economy). I'd rather have invasive surgery that removes it and some healthy tissue (short lived crisis, run on gilts, collapse of the tory party) than status quo (truss et al going into apparent remission while destroying more of the body politic)

 

[flecc]

what I believe is completely different to your view. Russia is fine until Ukraine elected Poroshenko in 2014. It becomes clear where Ukrainians are heading, away from Russia and eventually, join the EU. Putin wanted to stop that by force. He now theatens all NATO countries. Putin needs to be stopped. It's simplistic but there it is, it's my sense of right and wrong.

Agreed that Ukraine were heading away from Russia by 2014, but by starting at that point you completely ignore all the prior US underhand influences on them to head that way.

But you are completely wrong that Putin was prepared to use force to stop EU entry for Ukraine. He has no problem with the EU and lives alongside three EU countries, four if one counts Romania bordering the Black Sea. And as you know, he even explored EU entry for Russia.

This attempted punitive war and the 2008 punitive one with Georgia are and were solely about the US efforts to bring NATO up to Russia's borders, sealing Russia off from the South as well as already having sealed them off from the West, In other words, the USA's continuation of the Cold War long after Russia abandoned it by the dissolution of the USSR.

As a son of France you puzzle me. de Gaulle had the right idea in keeping the Americans very much at arms length with healthy suspicion of them, and his removal of France from NATO in 1966 was a wise decision.

Following presidents supported him, until Sarkozy let the side down by cosying up to the USA and putting France back into NATO after 43 years absent. Little wonder Marine Le Pen remains such a force in French politics.
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[flecc]

"if you're neutral in situations of injustice you have chosen the side of the oppressor". - - - I think you're doing the same, trying to rationalise injustice, oppression.

You appear to have not been following the posts.

I am not neutral. As i pointed out to Woosh I am against both sides in this issue.
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[jonathan.agnew]

You appear to have not been following the posts.

I am not neutral. As i pointed out to Woosh I am against both sides in this issue.
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My post was not about neutrality, rather about rationalising as part of creating false equivalence - between a fascist empire (russia) and a quite corrupt self serving but more or less democratic state (any in the west).

 

[flecc]

My post was not about neutrality, rather about rationalising as part of creating false equivalence - between a fascist empire (russia) and a quite corrupt self serving but more or less democratic state (any in the west).

I don't agree with your analysis. While Russian leadership has been intermittently fascist in nature, I think you accord that far too much importance. Russia's very harsh past has resulted in the people needing very strong leadership to keep order, Russians are far from being natural democrats or liberals. We saw that only too clearly in the utter chaos that the weak and drunken Yeltsin created when he lost control and the people were free to do whatever they wanted to.

And there is surely some equivalence where corruption is concerned. Russia is officially recognised as the world's most corrupt country with Ukraine hard on their heels in number 2 position.
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[Danidl]

Why don't you stick to what I post instead of replying with the ridiculous?

I illustrated all the US actions with ill effects from 1948 to the present day. In other words current history within the lifetime of many, showing a continuing persistent evil that is still here right now.

At least the evil of the USSR and it's Russian core stopped some thirty years ago, and it could have remained completely absent permanently, but for the USA's bigoted political response.

If the USA would only change course and recognise the rights of others to be politically different, I woudn't even mention root causes. But far from doing that, as well as being the root cause of today's war, they are even now trying to make more trouble in the China seas which could well trigger a whole new conflict.
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"it could have remained completely absent permanently, but for the USA's bigoted political response"..
close to agree with you there. But rather than bigoted I would use shortsighted and hubris . However it might be naïve to think that Russian Imperial ambitions ceased with the Cold War. Poland ,who have closer links to Russia were never fooled.

 

[flecc]

"it could have remained completely absent permanently, but for the USA's bigoted political response"..
close to agree with you there. But rather than bigoted I would use shortsighted and hubris .

As well, yes, but my emphasis was on the USA's rejection of not just communism but any hint of socialism, which I view as bigotry. Ask Obama!

However it might be naïve to think that Russian Imperial ambitions ceased with the Cold War. Poland ,who have closer links to Russia were never fooled.

Yes Russia has its hawks, just as the USA has, so in both it could never be said that the related ambitions cease. But it remains a fact that the Duma appointed Gorbachov to president as a long standing advocate of peace with Europe. And when Gorbachov resigned, followed him with Yeltsin, another strong advocate of perestroika, though by haste rather than order.

It is undeniable that their political will then was for a harmonious peace with the west, and indeed to become a part of that west.

Of course Poland's view is heavily tainted by history and like the USA they refused to accept that Russia could change, but I insist both were wrong at the time.

They've certainly made themselves right now of course, but that is a hardly a laudable achievement.
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[Woosh]

As a son of France you puzzle me. de Gaulle had the right idea in keeping the Americans very much at arms length with healthy suspicion of them, and his removal of France from NATO in 1966 was a wise decision.

we are grateful for their help in the WW2 but we are not following US politics like Brits. Still, public opinion is very much against what Monsieur Poutine is doing in Ukraine and France does what she can for Ukraine.

 

[flecc]

we are grateful for their help in the WW2 but we are not following US politics like Brits.

I know and have always admired French political thought being independent of the USA's. Hence my disgust with Sarkozy.
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[oyster]

Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 38%, a staggering twenty-three points more than in our previous poll two weeks ago, and the largest lead ever achieved by any party in our Red Wall polling. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 19-20 September) are as follows:


Labour 61% (+12)
Conservative 23% (-11)
Reform UK 3% (-4)
Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
Green 4% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (–)

Latest Red Wall Voting Intention (3-4 October 2022)

One of the critical questions for the next General Election in the United Kingdom will be whether the Conservative Party can hold onto the …

redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com

 

[Woosh]

I know and have always admired French political thought being independent of the USA's. Hence my disgust with Sarkozy.
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He has been embroiled in so many dodgy dealings. He got there because he's a smooth talker and I have never liked him. I did like Pompidou.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 38%, a staggering twenty-three points more than in our previous poll two weeks ago, and the largest lead ever achieved by any party in our Red Wall polling. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 19-20 September) are as follows:


Labour 61% (+12)
Conservative 23% (-11)
Reform UK 3% (-4)
Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
Green 4% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (–)

View attachment 49064

Latest Red Wall Voting Intention (3-4 October 2022)

One of the critical questions for the next General Election in the United Kingdom will be whether the Conservative Party can hold onto the …

redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com

But how many would seamlessly return to voting for boris, again, if the tories conjured him up. Perhaps a few challenging winters on reduced benefits isn't such a bad thing. Unlike the mainstream media I still don't think truss (or even the tories) are the problem as much as the 18 million who, in effect, voted for the current natural conclusion to the brexit vote.
Edit - to spell it out. in the highly unlikely event any dim witted brexiteers read this. By voting for brexit you released, inflicted the most destructive far right wing agenda, think tanks, agents on the uk. If you didn't anticipate the truss agenda when you did that I recommend, in the first instance, an iq test.

 

[flecc]

But how many would seamlessly return to voting for boris, again, if the tories conjured him up. Perhaps a few challenging winters on reduced benefits isn't such a bad thing. Unlike the mainstream media I still don't think truss (or even the tories) are the problem as much as the 18 million who, in effect, voted for the current natural conclusion to the brexit vote.
Edit - to spell it out. in the highly unlikely event any dim witted brexiteers read this. By voting for brexit you released, inflicted the most destructive far right wing agenda, think tanks, agents on the uk. If you didn't anticipate the truss agenda when you did that I recommend, in the first instance, an iq test.

Agreed, it's by far the electorate who are the real problem, and not just the tories. Here in London we were lumbered with TWO terms of Boris Johnson as mayor, not because he was ever Londoners popular choice but simply because the complacent great majority of Labour "supporters" twice couldn't be bothered to turn out to vote.

Eight years for it to sink into their heads that staying at home was a vote for the Tories.
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[guerney]

Comedies will at last become funnier again, over the next few years of total misery. I'm really looking forward to them.

 

[esuark]

staying at home was a vote for the Tories

Agreed, and all those who suffer at their hands and still say they're all the same and don't bother to vote. Its what the tories rely on.

 

[oldgroaner]

Russia's very harsh past

Is what comes of Running an Empire won by conquest using Fascist methods

 

[oldgroaner]

Just watched Yesterday's Russian State TV daily update
When Olga from the Volga asked the war correspondent in Ukraine tell her the truth about what was going on this was his reply

"On Tuesdays, I only tell the truth. The rest of the time I just make it up".
Now that was golden. True classic. He needs to replace Peskov.

But remember not to go near windows above ground level

 

[esuark]

Just been reading about some green peace activists interrupting truss`s speech with a banner saying “Who voted for this?” it should have been “Who voted for that?”..................