Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Trolling and deliberate misquoting. Quelle surpris.

My including the words "an evolutionary dead end" in the last quote when it should not have been there was my editing mistake, for which I apologise.

I've corrected that to show it was entirely unintentional.

I neither troll nor deliberately misquote.
.

 

[flecc]

Whose memory is defective?
There were negotiations between NATO and Russia, not between Ukraine and Russia.
The BBC reported extensively on these negotiations and the situation at the border of Ukraine well before the war started.
In my previous post, I meant that zelenskiy has accepted before the invasion on TV that EU membership is not certain and would take a long time, NATO membership depends on NATO acceptance, which is another way for not in the foreseeable future.
Zelenskiy stood up to Putin because he had plenty of assurances from the West that we'll support him and that may be foolish with hindsight but you tried quite hard to trash Zelenskiy which he does not deserve.

I posted that Zelenskyy's statement at the time was only one of defiance, with perfect accuracy.

That memory was entirely accurate as your last sentence admits, so please stop trying to imply with acres of waffle that I misremembered. I did not.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

My including the words "an evolutionary dead end" in the last quote when it should not have been there was my editing mistake, for which I apologise.

I've corrected that to show it was entirely unintentional.

I neither troll nor deliberately misquote.
.

Apology accepted, I've lived in Finland and wouldn't dream of describing its society as an evolutionary dead end.

 

[Woosh]

I posted that Zelenskyy's statement at the time was only one of defiance, with perfect accuracy.

That memory was entirely accurate as your last sentence admits, so please stop trying to imply with acres of waffle that I misremembered. I did not.
.

I give up. Your mind is set. Zelenskiy is criminal and/or foolish, Putin has all the rights to do what he did, I have faulty memory and we should just accept that situation as a fact. End of discussion.

 

[flecc]

I give up. Your mind is set. Zelenskiy is criminal and/or foolish, Putin has all the rights to do what he did, I have faulty memory and we should just accept that situation as a fact. End of discussion.

Dishonesty again, you know and admitted in your previous post that I was correct in what I posted about Zelenskyy's statement.

And I have NEVER said Putin had the rights to do what he did. I've posted the opposite since neither he nor anyone else ever has any rights to wage war.

We can post harmoniously if you simply stick to what I actually post instead of pretending it's something else. However, since you are far from being the only one responding with non sequiturs, I'm off.
.

 

[Woosh]

OK, I am dishonest now.
Very sorry.

 

[GLJoe]

V. Putin who changed its constitution to make himself its life president, like Kim in North Korea. Now Xi Jinping does the same.
These countries have now dictators. What Ukrainians did was to realise what its powerful and unpredictable neighbour can do and sought the protection of NATO and EU membership by voting for Zelenskiy.
The war in Ukraine opens the eyes of many to the danger of dictatorships.

It does indeed.
Hasn't Zelenskiy just gone and banned his opposition parties?
And merged all the national TV channels into one, under his governments control?
Hmmm .... sounds a bit dictatorial to me ...

If true, its certainly opened my eyes.
So who should we be worried about ???

 

[Woosh]

It does indeed.
Hasn't Zelenskiy just gone and banned his opposition parties?
And merged all the national TV channels into one, under his governments control?
Hmmm .... sounds a bit dictatorial to me ...

If true, its certainly opened my eyes.
So who should we be worried about ???

we should be worried about those with large numbers of nukes, especially those making threats of using them.
They can wipe us out anytime they choose to. I am usually against regime change but I would make an exception for dictators. I wish the UN would change its constitution banning countries with life leaders. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Danidl]

It does indeed.
Hasn't Zelenskiy just gone and banned his opposition parties?
And merged all the national TV channels into one, under his governments control?
Hmmm .... sounds a bit dictatorial to me ...

If true, its certainly opened my eyes.
So who should we be worried about ???

When your country is at WAR , and being INVADED the social niceties of habeus corpus, free travel , and personal freedoms do get suspended. The term is force Majeure .
Now the only opposition parties which are restricted are those which are "Pro Russian " . There appears to be no restrictions on any persons speaking to the BBC or CNN or Indian TV etc etc. There doesn't appear to be any restrictions on people saying what they want or on Internet access. Well there are limitations on the Internet from Cruise missiles and artillery, but there is apparently huge cooperation between providers to keep the systems operational.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yet they still had a third less deaths than us pro rata.
.

Ethnic cleaning of the elderly

 

[oldgroaner]

It does indeed.
Hasn't Zelenskiy just gone and banned his opposition parties?
And merged all the national TV channels into one, under his governments control?
Hmmm .... sounds a bit dictatorial to me ...

If true, its certainly opened my eyes.
So who should we be worried about ???

No, it's pretty standard for nations to do this remember the USA interning all Japanese Americans?
And us with Germans?
"Hmmm .... sounds a bit dictatorial to me"

Everything was censored and strictly controlled in this country during both wars, so don't try making out their action is anything but standard procedure.

 

[oyster]

I wonder who?

No 10 lockdown breaches: Met police expected to issue first fines
Exclusive: Scotland Yard investigation reportedly finds laws were broken at heart of government

No 10 lockdown breaches: Met police expected to issue first fines

Exclusive: Scotland Yard investigation reportedly finds laws were broken at heart of government

www.theguardian.com

 

[oyster]

The complete ME-ME-ME politician poses. Again. In competition with Truss for number of pics, I'd say.

I have worked closely with
@NCA_UK
& the
@UKBorder
’s Maritime investigation Bureau to intercept the £38m - Phi. This Government will continue to take robust action against anyone benefiting from connections to Putin’s regime.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508784943874383874

 

[oyster]

Looks like there is going to be further delay to checks on EU imports. That makes it the fourth time.

 

[daveboy]

I wonder who?

No 10 lockdown breaches: Met police expected to issue first fines
Exclusive: Scotland Yard investigation reportedly finds laws were broken at heart of government

No 10 lockdown breaches: Met police expected to issue first fines

Exclusive: Scotland Yard investigation reportedly finds laws were broken at heart of government

www.theguardian.com

More importantly, I wonder who not?

 

[GLJoe]

No, it's pretty standard for nations to do this remember the USA interning all Japanese Americans?
And us with Germans?
"Hmmm .... sounds a bit dictatorial to me"

Everything was censored and strictly controlled in this country during both wars, so don't try making out their action is anything but standard procedure.

I'm not 'making out their action is anything but standard procedure'
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the fact that when an 'Enemy' does something, they are condemned as dictators, anti-democratic, insane monsters etc etc. Yet when we, or an 'Ally' does exactly the same, all of a sudden its perfectly acceptable and either its commended, ignored, or someone on an internet forum comes out and declares its 'standard procedure'.

 

[Woosh]

I'm not 'making out their action is anything but standard procedure'
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the fact that when an 'Enemy' does something, they are condemned as dictators, anti-democratic, insane monsters etc etc. Yet when we, or an 'Ally' does exactly the same, all of a sudden its perfectly acceptable and either its commended, ignored, or someone on an internet forum comes out and declares its 'standard procedure'.

agreed but when you have a vote at the UN like 141/5 with 35 abstention, this is surely a pretty clear cut case to most people.
Had it been the other way, Ukraine blitzkriegged the Donbass and wiped out the Pro Russian towns and villages, would you still say it's not clear cut?
Putin had a bee under his bonnet, Russia created Ukraine, Ukraine can't be an independent country outside the Russian sphere. It's that simple and can be achieved easily by democratic means.
What is not simple is when Russia uses its military to gain a large track of territory and control of the Sea of Azov. NATO can stay neutral like when the same happened in 2008 (Georgia) or 2014 (Ukraine) or intervene.
One could argue that NATO's help prolongs the war and increases the collateral damages. In this case, intervention is justified to me on the basis that in the 21st century, this use of military means should be outlawed.

 

[flecc]

One could argue that NATO's help prolongs the war and increases the collateral damages. In this case, intervention is justified to me on the basis that in the 21st century, this use of military means should be outlawed.

I fully agree that the use of military force should be completely outlawed, and not only that for territorial gain you mention, since Russia and the USA both use force as political policy enforcement.

But sadly that is the theory and impossible for the following reasons:

1) The USA has set itself and NATO as an unauthorised international police force by force alone, which given the USA's appalling record of war crimes (Napalm, Agent Orange, Carpet Bombing, Shock and Awe Attack, Multiple Illegal Invasions, Regime Changes, Promoting dictatorship) makes it totally unacceptable for performing that function to much of the world.

2) The United Nations should be the deciding and enforcing body, but it was emasculated when it was first set up by the USA who refused to let the rest of the world set it up in neutral Switzerland and also insisted on the right of veto by a small select band of powerful permanent members, China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, United States.

In other words, the bullies in charge of the playground.
.

 

[Danidl]

I'm not 'making out their action is anything but standard procedure'
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the fact that when an 'Enemy' does something, they are condemned as dictators, anti-democratic, insane monsters etc etc. Yet when we, or an 'Ally' does exactly the same, all of a sudden its perfectly acceptable and either its commended, ignored, or someone on an internet forum comes out and declares its 'standard procedure'.

Extremely selective. ..Russian sympathiser parties in Ukraine were fully authorised and operational until AFTER Russian Army bombs and troops were hitting Ukraine. Dissent in Russia , even reporting the WAR was punishable with 15 years in prison. There was no equivalent law in Ukraine. Now I have been critical of the EU banning RT from satellite transmission. It usually helps to hear what the other guy is saying ..even the lies are useful.

 

[Danidl]

I fully agree that the use of military force should be completely outlawed, and not only that for territorial gain you mention, since Russia and the USA both use force as political policy enforcement.

But sadly that is the theory and impossible for the following reasons:

1) THe USA has set itself and NATO as an unauthorised international police force by force alone, which given the USA's appalling record of war crimes (Napalm, Agent Orange, Carpet Bombing, Shock and Awe Attack, Multiple Illegal Invasions, Regime Changes, Promoting dictatorship) makes it totally unacceptable for performing that function to much of the world.

2) The United Nations should be the deciding and enforcing body, but it was emasculated when it was first set up by the USA who refused to let the rest of the world set it up in neutral Switzerland and also insisted on the right of veto by a small select band of powerful permanent members, China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, United States.

In other words, the bullies in charge of the playground.
.

The Bullies in charge of the playground were the victorious side in the WW2. .. China was not included. And of course soon afterwards they were the guys with Nuclear weapons. That India is not now included is a travesty ..but you see where that leads ..