Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
In the context of Russian war crimes in Ukraine what putin does next is irrelevant. As Biden finally point out this ends when there's regime change in russia
Vladimir Putin 'cannot remain in power', says Joe Biden
US president Joe Biden warned that Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power" in a rousing speech to crowds in Warsaw.
Finnish President on Russia: How do you react to behaviour from another planet?
Sauli Niinistö spoke at an international summit on Saturday focused on forging a diplomatic way forward on the Ukraine crisis.yle.fi
Seems Finnish President doesn't agree with you flecc. But you won't read article or believe points made.
Very selective. It went on to say:
The French president was recently quoted as suggesting "Finlandisation" as a possible solution for Ukraine. During the Cold War Finland was essentially a buffer state between the Soviet Union and the west.
Niinistö brushed off comments about "Finlandisation," saying it hadn't existed for 40 years, instead choosing to highlight rankings showing Finland as one of the happiest and least corrupt countries in the world.
"This model is very open and free for use," he told the audience.
And he is definitely not in favour of NATO membership, wanting to stay neutral and missing the substantial revenue from the relationship with Russia since Covid. Seems you and Danidl are blind to such words like happy that don't favour your hopelessly outdated Cold War views.
I've shown how wrong you've been with recent historic proofs, but you are too perverse to admit it.
I presume you'd prefer to have continuing wars.
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I very clearly posted about the decades since the end of the USSR and you respond with this about the post WW2 USSR times! Typical of a lost argument.
Your utterly warped view again. I merely see this as being a good and sensible neighbour. All of our lives are full of such compromises which we accept.
"Niinistö brushed off comments about "Finlandisation," saying it hadn't existed for 40 years."
Again you are very out of date, still stuck in the cold war period.
They are, once again as the president confirmed in the quoted speech:
" instead choosing to highlight rankings showing Finland as one of the happiest and least corrupt countries in the world."
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Flecc, over the course of discussions on this subject you have called me idiotic, a liar and now suggested I want to prolong this war,an opinion I, m not even going to credit with a reply. Its pointless engaging with you, I, ve said as much before but I won't be posting on subject any more. Your stand point is corrupted, biased and not fair towards either Ukrainians defending their own freedom and probably that of ours or anybody who sees Putin for exactly what he is. Weeks ago you described Ukrainian actions as stupid. I should have realised the depth of your delusion at that point.
Putin has relied on folk like yourself since his invasions of Georgia, annexation of Crimea, poisoning off Navalny, Livenchenko, and God knows who else, and now with his attempted invasion of Ukraine to placate his aggressive ambitions, excuse them and somehow blame someone else. Its like an abuser who kicks his wife and children but then blames neighbours for annoying him. How much else Flecc before you wake up. When he, s sending cruise missiles into France perhaps?
Nobody in freeworld can possibly justify any of Putin's behaviour, except you. I think you have lost it flecc.
And, if I were you I should reread my link. You completely missed the actual narrative.
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Dishonest quoting again. If you want to quote me, use the bloody quote facility, or is that too honest for you?
I posted "I presume you'd prefer to have continuing wars" i.e. future wars, NOT this war continuing which as you well know I'd advocated bringing to an end weeks ago by a simple concession.
But you posted against that, clearly content for this war to continue with all its horrific human costs.
Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black".
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And yet more dishonesty.
I have clearly posted that Putin's attacks on Ukraine and Georgia were inexcusable and that I didn't support them in any way.
Once again for your hard of understanding mind, explaining why something happens as I've done is just that, an explanation, not an excuse for inexcusable actions.
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I am not going to respond further on this topic , other than to say that ..
1. Read the article by Ninisto. ...not just looking for a workable quote.
2. I only choose to respond about Finland because you choose the word" Happy *". when happy is not what the relationship is. Finland's post USSR and current situation ..well up to last December, was that of living close to an abusive neighbour you try not to antagonise, and hoping that by being quiet they will ignore you.
3. No. I had hoped we were long out of the Cold War period.. Putin revived it. As I wrote earlier, the Western world hoped that trade would dissolve the barriers.
How utterly ridiculous a view when the Finns willingly and enthusiastically hosted tens of thousands of holidaying Russians each year, enjoying the profitable relationship. And when the Finns themselves happily ( yes that word again) drove across the border regularly for Russia's low consumer prices, including very cheap petrol and diesel.
The living in fear relationship you suggest obviously didn't exist in post USSR times.
And Putin did not revive the cold war. The USA did by never stopping their attempts to expand NATO when it was clearly no longer appropriate nor necessary with perestroika. Putin's response to that was and is replying in kind.
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What would you want as a Ukrainian? Say six weeks (or years) ago? To join the EU and nato (security matters to us all)? Or putin's Russia with its censorship and brutal oppression?
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Neither, since six weeks ago, six years ago and many more years ago from the fall of the USSR onwards there were other options, as I've so very clearly and repeatedly explained. Just some thought and the application of intelligence were all that was needed on each occasion.
As examples, Finland, Sweden and Norway have managed their post USSR relationships with Russia extremely well. Two of them have direct borders with Russia, in Finland's case 1,340 km long, remaining completely open two ways post USSR, until Covid introduced some health restrictions, limiting but not stopping, crossing the border.
Norway is also a NATO country. Sweden joined the EU long after the Berlin wall came down and well after the dissolution of the USSR. Finland also became a full EU, Schengen and eurozone member at the same time. Norway became an EEA-EFTA member at the same time and ratified that with a new agreement as recently as 2002. All while maintaining peaceful and co-operative relationships with Russia post USSR and showing how easily that can be achieved.
There's a reason why so many politicians are lawyers, they understand the principles necessary for diplomacy and successful political action. By the same token, appointing a comedian with no appropriate experience to lead a country like Ukraine, positioned in a potentially trying relationship, was hardly a wise move at the time. It has since proved to be a disastrous one as we see today.
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We are where we are because lawyers (Obama for one) appeased putin. As they would. I have two brothers who are both successful lawyers. You couldn't be more wrong: they do not understand principle, they understand lack of principle, expedience, defending the undefensible for gain. That in a nutshell is what got us here. The comedian you deride is doing a great deal to get us out of a mess of enmeshed relationships with fascist states. And perhaps just in time. That mutti Merkel from East Germany didn't get what putin's game plan was when he made Germany dependant on Russian energy is the kind of irony historians will remark on two hundred years from now.
Again an entirely predicable rant, devoid of understanding.
The whole of life is about expedience, compromise and where necessary, negotiated settlement. It's the only way we are able to live together successfully, the imperfect legal way.
You are the person who has advocated the west going into war to "sort out" Putin and Russia, unable to realise that war never solves any problem, it only makes matters far worse as the present conflict shows.
In this matter you are one step below most higher order animals, since even they know there's a time to back off and avoid conflict with potentially brutal opposition.
And you've completely ignored my three example countries, all often rated as some of the world's happiest countries, with the Finnish president stressing that fact in his recent address. All while they are such close neighbours of Russia. Where they are is where Ukraine could have been for years, but for those who think like you.
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The sneering contempt and personal insult you resort to, ad nauseum, is interesting. Does it mirror something of your perception of international relations, that they absolutely have to be coercive, abusive? I've lived in the nordic countries for a number of years. Their relative happiness have precious little to do with having Russia as a neighbour. Anyhieuw, as stevie griffin would say, you're going to have tobjourney down your rabbit hole unaccompanied, I'm off.
Flecc.. I am afraid the rose tinted glasses are a bit red. Sweden joined the EU in 1995 , when Russia was reeling from the after effects of the Afghan War . The Finnish experience is as I described it , not as you are stating. Of course Finland welcomed any wealthy Russians who wanted to spend money there. .. Just as the abused wife will ensure that the dinner table is set .
Neither Finland nor Sweden had been under Soviet Union control, . RUSSIA was prepared to allow Ukraine have a very limited form of freedom provided it remained a mirror image of Russia. It was because they started having anything approaching a western view. Perhaps ,and I concede this point ,it was not clever of the EU to give Ukraine greater travel and residency permissions ..but that was all part of attempts to encourage openness, not to isolate Russia. The crunch point arise when Ukraines President was hauled back to Moscow and instructed to backtrack on election committments. So the fact is it was not open to Ukraine to be where Sweden or Finland is now.
The other points you make of war not solving anything and ultimately there has to be negotiation ,I fully agree with.
Of course it doesn't and I haven't said it does. I simply illustrated that with the prior application of thought and intelligence, being a very close neighbour to Russia need not materially or spiritually adversely affect the quality of one's life. In parts of Finland, Norway and China, it has even measurably improved it.
Even in Ukraine it could have done.
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You are still splitting hairs. The Finnish experience has consistently allowed them to be both independently and self rated a happy country since the dissolution of the USSR. Your abused wife analogy is false, since if true, Finns would not have been so regularly and freely entering Russia in such large numbers.
And while never in the Soviet union, Finland was wholly a part of Russia from 1809 to 1917 so hardly without relevant experience.
From the outset the point I've been making is that being a neighbour of Russia doesn't have to be an unpleasant and unhappy experience, not even for Ukraine. The vehicle to achieve that is, as you agree, negotiation. Plus what I've added about being an understanding and empathetic neighbour.
Your saying Ukraine could not have been where Finland is now, simply doesn't take into account my previous paragraph. The post USSR situations of the two countries is so similar as to make no difference. Both have very long and quite open land borders with Russia. Both have been wholly a part of Russia for long periods. Both became independent in 1917. Both have proportionally large solely Russian populations.
So Ukraine could largely have done what Finland did since 1991, reached a way of life as a close neighbour of Russia that gave them peace and contentment, modifying the actions to their own circumstances to achieve that.
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A new way of dealing with Covid
"
Lazarus Long
@LazarusLong13
Some have wondered if this study, "Evaluation of science advice during the COVID-19 pandemic in Sweden" was correct in saying many elderly people were given morphine instead of oxygen. nature.com/articles/s41599-022-01097-5…Thanks to
@Georgeberger
, I can confirm "Yes."
I'm impressed! (but not favourably)
"
Lazarus Long
@LazarusLong13
Some have wondered if this study, "Evaluation of science advice during the COVID-19 pandemic in Sweden" was correct in saying many elderly people were given morphine instead of oxygen. nature.com/articles/s41599-022-01097-5…Thanks to
@Georgeberger
, I can confirm "Yes."
I'm impressed! (but not favourably)
Yet they still had a third less deaths than us pro rata.A new way of dealing with Covid
"
Lazarus Long
@LazarusLong13
Some have wondered if this study, "Evaluation of science advice during the COVID-19 pandemic in Sweden" was correct in saying many elderly people were given morphine instead of oxygen. nature.com/articles/s41599-022-01097-5…Thanks to
@Georgeberger
, I can confirm "Yes."
I'm impressed! (but not favourably)
.
V. Putin who changed its constitution to make himself its life president, like Kim in North Korea. Now Xi Jinping does the same.
These countries have now dictators. What Ukrainians did was to realise what its powerful and unpredictable neighbour can do and sought the protection of NATO and EU membership by voting for Zelenskiy.
The war in Ukraine opens the eyes of many to the danger of dictatorships.
The point is, would you now accept Biden's view that Putin is a butcher?