Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

New investigation required - why would anyone pay a six-figure sum if not in the least bit liable/responsible? She is, surely, responsible for her departmental budget - from which this sum will disappear.

Home Office settles case accusing Priti Patel of 'vicious' campaign against official
The Government has reached a settlement with Sir Philip Runtam over his accusations of constructive dismissal - but a Home Office source said they had not accepted liability

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/home-office-settles-case-accusing-23608650

 

[flecc]

Interestingly EU citizens appear to think uk govt has handled vaccine quite a lot worse than UK citizens believe? Could that be propoganda? Our's or EU's.(or both)

Our leaving the EU has created a lot of ill feeling among many EU citizens so I think that's more likely to be the reason. I'm not aware of any anti UK propaganda aimed at the EU countries by either the EU or the UK. I think the news alone over time has been carrying enough to annoy and I'm sure most EU citizens are as bored with Brexit as most Brits are.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Our leaving the EU has created a lot of ill feeling among many EU citizens so I think that's more likely to be the reason. I'm not aware of any anti UK propaganda aimed at the EU countries by either the EU or the UK. I think the news alone over time has been carrying enough to annoy and I'm sure most EU citizens are as bored with Brexit as most Brits are.
.

Could be... Thing is (according to survey) EU generally sees Johnson has not doing a great job with vaccine but see their own leaders and EU as even worse.
Its as if they think UK has done well with Vaccine but attribute none of that to Johnson. Which is probably fair.
Just for info


OG, your numbers game must balance by end of roll out. Going fast now with first dose simply means going slow with second later.
Its irrelevant. Roll out will be assessed at its end (well a month after it). How many times. A fast start is no use to anyone with a slow or disastrous end. Whether you blame Johnson, Witty, God or Satan. We can't assess vaccine results until it's finished. Good or bad. Numbers game??? What does that mean.
I, m sat trying to work out how to explain it to you. Johnson will lose no 10 if vaccine roll out fails in 6 months. Its in nobody's interests to simply vaccinate millions now if it fails. The crux is working or not in a few months and saving as many lives as possible whilst getting there.
So far, so good. But there is a long way to go. Keep fingers crossed.
Think we should stop discussing vaccine roll out and get back to productive discourse on Brexit.

 

[sjpt]

The same words appeared in both the U.K. and the EU contracts, so whatever is decided in the court will apply equally to both.

Not necessarily, as it will be different courts.

 

[Zlatan]

Not necessarily, as it will be different courts.

Which courts? Ours certainly won't be seeing a court room and doubt very much EU even will. Why should ours face court scrutiny? Might if everything goes pear shaped but even then nobody has broken contracts or even faced penalties within them??
Why do you think AZ will be taking UK to court or vice versa? All sweetness and life at moment.
That's the whole point.The contracts between UK and AZ are working perfectly. The EU/AZ and EU/Pfizer are not.

 

[oyster]

Could be... Thing is (according to survey) EU generally sees Johnson has not doing a great job with vaccine but see their own leaders and EU as even worse.
Its as if they think UK has done well with Vaccine but attribute none of that to Johnson. Which is probably fair.
Just for info
View attachment 41083
View attachment 41084
OG, your numbers game must balance by end of roll out. Going fast now with first dose simply means going slow with second later.
Its irrelevant. Roll out will be assessed at its end (well a month after it). How many times. A fast start is no use to anyone with a slow or disastrous end. Whether you blame Johnson, Witty, God or Satan. We can't assess vaccine results until it's finished. Good or bad. Numbers game??? What does that mean.
I, m sat trying to work out how to explain it to you. Johnson will lose no 10 if vaccine roll out fails in 6 months. Its in nobody's interests to simply vaccinate millions now if it fails. The crux is working or not in a few months and saving as many lives as possible whilst getting there.

Assessing the rollout is going to be very complicated - and long-winded.

We need think about whether we are ever going to get the second dose. I still suspect not of the current Mark I vaccine - many will be shifted onto a Mark II vaccine.

We need to understand far more about those in whom receipt of a vaccine (whether of one or two doses) does not prevent serious illness/hospitalisation/death.

I do think Johnson would be far more willing to go with a roll out which eventually does fail because I don't trust his ability to make the right decisions. Certainly, he doesn't want it to fail but if he crosses his fingers, it could go wrong.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG I sat and simply shook my head in despair when I read this. We aren't really getting anywhere are we. Oh well,I,ve tried.

And so did I! I am not saying that the Vaccination scheme is a failure, just that when we had the opportunity during the recent lockdown some effort should have been made to do more second injections at the correct interval to ensure the maximum protection levels the vaccine is capable of giving
Especially among the critically challenged group
It's rather like Expecting the full performance out of an engine without bothering to run it in.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Which courts? Ours certainly won't be seeing a court room and doubt very much EU even will. Why should ours face court scrutiny? Might if everything goes pear shaped but even then nobody has broken contracts or even faced penalties within them??
Why do you think AZ will be taking UK to court or vice versa? All sweetness and life at moment.

I tend to agree. I think the EU will won’t to forget the entire vaccine procurement shambles, it doesn’t look good for them.

 

[oldgroaner]

New investigation required - why would anyone pay a six-figure sum if not in the least bit liable/responsible? She is, surely, responsible for her departmental budget - from which this sum will disappear.

Home Office settles case accusing Priti Patel of 'vicious' campaign against official
The Government has reached a settlement with Sir Philip Runtam over his accusations of constructive dismissal - but a Home Office source said they had not accepted liability

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/home-office-settles-case-accusing-23608650

Reminds me of Aneurin Bevan's remark when asked how he got the medical profession to accept working in the NHS
"I stuffed their mouths with silver"

 

[Zlatan]

Assessing the rollout is going to be very complicated - and long-winded.

We need think about whether we are ever going to get the second dose. I still suspect not of the current Mark I vaccine - many will be shifted onto a Mark II vaccine.

We need to understand far more about those in whom receipt of a vaccine (whether of one or two doses) does not prevent serious illness/hospitalisation/death.

I do think Johnson would be far more willing to go with a roll out which eventually does fail because I don't trust his ability to make the right decisions. Certainly, he doesn't want it to fail but if he crosses his fingers, it could go wrong.

I, m not so sure. If we see infection controlled, deaths down to the levels we, d expect from a bad Flu year, hospitalisation down to 10% or so of peak and steady and country opened up with kids at school and pubs, hospitality open... Roll out has worked. I, m not talking about the nuts and bolts, why and where's and what we did or didn't do... That's for some investigation in years to come.
Roll out will be seen to have worked when or if we get back to some semblance of normality and that's what govt will be assessed on by public.
Yes, the academics amongst us will be number crunching for a decade but when man in street can go to work, go to pub and watch his football he, ll think roll out has worked. And he, d be right.

 

[sjpt]

Which courts? Ours certainly won't be seeing a court room and doubt very much EU even will. Why should ours face court scrutiny? Might if everything goes pear shaped but even then nobody has broken contracts or even faced penalties within them??
Why do you think AZ will be taking UK to court or vice versa? All sweetness and life at moment.
That's the whole point.The contracts between UK and AZ are working perfectly. The EU/AZ and EU/Pfizer are not.

Quite. I should have said 'if would be different courts'. I was specifically commenting on the suggestion that as the 'best effort' part of the wording of both UK and EU contacts was the same, any court interpretation of that wording would be the same.

 

[oyster]

Alternatives to the tories?

Westminster warned as poll shows record backing for Welsh independence
Survey for ITV News Tonight reported ‘dramatic uplift’ with 40% backing independence and most support amongst young people
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/04/westminster-warned-as-poll-shows-record-backing-for-welsh-independence

PC have come across very well in the past few years.

Looks like it isn't only PC who are pointing out problems:

Wales's Mark Drakeford says 'remote' Boris Johnson is putting union at risk
First minister says the UK ‘as it is, is over’ and that he has had only one proper meeting with the PM
The Welsh first minister has criticised how the UK government engages with the devolved administrations and suggested Downing Street’s approach is putting the union in peril.

Mark Drakeford described his own relationship with Boris Johnson as “remote”, revealing he had only had one proper meeting with the prime minister.

Giving evidence at the UK parliament’s Welsh affairs committee from an outbuilding in his garden because he is self-isolating, Drakeford said: “There is no institutional architecture to make the United Kingdom work. It is all ad hoc, random, and made up as we go along. And I’m afraid that really is not a satisfactory basis to sustain the future of the UK.”

Drakeford said the lack of regular meetings made the “security of the future of the UK” more difficult. “Without the prime minister playing his part in all of that, I think it undermines the efforts of those of us who want to craft a successful future for the UK.”

The Labour leader in Wales said he felt the United Kingdom “as it is, is over” and a new union should be created to reflect a “voluntary association of four nations”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/04/wales-mark-drakeford-says-remote-boris-johnson-is-putting-union-at-risk

 

[Danidl]

Which courts? Ours certainly won't be seeing a court room and doubt very much EU even will. Why should ours face court scrutiny? Might if everything goes pear shaped but even then nobody has broken contracts or even faced penalties within them??
Why do you think AZ will be taking UK to court or vice versa? All sweetness and life at moment.
That's the whole point.The contracts between UK and AZ are working perfectly. The EU/AZ and EU/Pfizer are not.

No. The EU has ,as far as I am aware, no problem with Pfizer the deliveries have been on schedule. It is AZ where the problem is. And the applicable court would be the European Courts, since AZ is incorporated in Sweden

 

[oldgroaner]

I was amused by this
"
Rishi Sunak's Richmondshire patch was among the 100 places allowed to bid, but Hull - the 4th most deprived place in the country - wasn't

Someone should have reminded him Hull voted for leave
And now we've got it so to speak
We got left
And here we all are disappointed

We imagined that for the first time large scale improvements since the town planning by the Luftwaffe were coming our way...

The good news is we have a new Footbridge over the dual carriageway in the town centre

It's very good for the environment too would be suicides no longer have to take a bus or taxi when the urge comes over them to jump off the Humber Bridge, the pubs and drug traffickers are in the local streets, and what a convenience for throwing things at the passing traffic, in my day you had to go to a Youth Club for fun like that.
Incidentally the people on the pavements are photoshopped in, as no one expects to survive there just before the rush hour unless the vehicle you break down in is a challenger tank.
When the rush hour starts you could walk home safely over the roofs of the gridlocked cars.

 

[Zlatan]

No. The EU has ,as far as I am aware, no problem with Pfizer the deliveries have been on schedule. It is AZ where the problem is. And the applicable court would be the European Courts, since AZ is incorporated in Sweden

Fair comment. I think the argument between them all is being overplayed. EU as a distraction from their failings, media because that's what they do and public in an attempt to blame party they see as failing. It won't get to court. Even if it does it will be well down the line and both parties will always need each other. There could be some allowances, modifications in future contracts to compensate but assume EU take AZ to court and win. Would court see fit to punish a company at forefront of getting us out this mess? Can't see it for a number of reasons. EU are simply trying to save face, they can do that without going to court.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

No. The EU has ,as far as I am aware, no problem with Pfizer the deliveries have been on schedule. It is AZ where the problem is. And the applicable court would be the European Courts, since AZ is incorporated in Sweden

I might take my dog to my own court which I’ve set up in the garden room and sue him for chewing my Wellington boots.

It’s not going to happen mate.

 

[oyster]

I was amused by this
"
Rishi Sunak's Richmondshire patch was among the 100 places allowed to bid, but Hull - the 4th most deprived place in the country - wasn't

Someone should have reminded him Hull voted for leave
And now we've got it so to speak
We got left
And here we all are disappointed

We imagined that for the first time large scale improvements since the town planning by the Luftwaffe were coming our way...

The good news is we have a new Footbridge over the dual carriageway in the town centre

It's very good for the environment too would be suicides no longer have to take a bus or taxi when the urge comes over them to jump off the Humber Bridge, the pubs and drug traffickers are in the local streets, and what a convenience for throwing things at the passing traffic, in my day you had to go to a Youth Club for fun like that.
Incidentally the people on the pavements are photoshopped in, as no one expects to survive there just before the rush hour unless the vehicle you break down in is a challenger tank.
When the rush hour starts you could walk home safely over the roofs of the gridlocked cars.

A new footbridge - with the zigzag approaches to a pedestrian crossing almost underneath it.

 

[oyster]

I might take my dog to my own court which I’ve set up in the garden room and sue him for chewing my Wellington boots.

It’s not going to happen mate.

Shh! Johnson might think to do that to his Jack Russell for damage done to Chequers...

 

[oldgroaner]

A new footbridge - with the zigzag approaches to a pedestrian crossing almost underneath it.

They are actually ones made obsolete by the Bridge

 

[oyster]

They are actually ones made obsolete by the Bridge

Ah - right. Just the condition of the paint looked too good for that to be the case. Did they get re-painted just before being made obsolete?