Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

Yep, with a special hypodermic the can get 6 doses out of vial containing 5...All seems rather unscientific tho. What amazes me, this isn't actually a problem with the vaccine, it's problems with vials and how much they hold or production lines. This could/should have been sorted months ago..

I think it was resolved months ago - in the minds of Pfizer. There are five doses - anything more is just there to ensure five full doses can be retrieved from a vial. But when medics started to see what looked like a whole extra dose (even two doses on occasion), they felt it was a waste.

 

[flecc]

Interesting that the Italians are planning to take legal action against Pfizer to ensure they get their 21 day second doses in time. What a difference from our 12 week delay policy and the political refusal to guarantee even that happening in time.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I think it was resolved months ago - in the minds of Pfizer. There are five doses - anything more is just there to ensure five full doses can be retrieved from a vial. But when medics started to see what looked like a whole extra dose (even two doses on occasion), they felt it was a waste.

But just sounds a bit amateurish. To make sure there is let's say 10 cc in vial they put 12 in. Which I, d guess is about the volume but whether it is or not they were planning on wasting 20%???
They don't even do that with smarties..

 

[oyster]

Very not good news:

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - The new COVID-19 variant identified in South Africa can evade the antibodies that attack it in treatments using blood plasma from previously recovered patients, and may reduce the efficacy of the current line of vaccines, scientists said on Wednesday.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-safrica-variant/new-covid-19-variant-defeats-plasma-treatment-may-reduce-vaccine-efficacy-idUSKBN29P2HJ

 

[flecc]

I think it was resolved months ago - in the minds of Pfizer. There are five doses - anything more is just there to ensure five full doses can be retrieved from a vial. But when medics started to see what looked like a whole extra dose (even two doses on occasion), they felt it was a waste.

The mention of a special needle to get that last extra sixth dose is concerning. That means a squarer cut sharp end to lift it all without sucking air. In turn that means a more blunt and painful skin entry for people frightened of injections, not very helpful.
.

 

[oyster]

The mention of a special needle to get that last extra sixth dose is concerning. That means a squarer cut sharp end to lift it all without sucking air. In turn that means a more blunt and painful skin entry for people frightened of injections, not very helpful.
.

Does it?

I know many B12 self-injectors use a separate needle for drawing up from injecting. (Several reasons, including length required for the draw versus the injection, likelihood of touching base of a single dose vial and consequent blunting, and using the narrowest consistent with effectively delivery to minimise discomfort.

Is that possible for this vaccine?

 

[Zlatan]

Interesting that the Italians are planning to take legal action against Pfizer to ensure they get their 21 day second doses in time. What a difference from our 12 week delay policy and the political refusal to guarantee even that happening in time.
.

I, ve agreed with that but don't think it's a political decision. Its expediency. Needs must. And just to remind you Flecc AZ vaccine is and always has been a 12 week wait between jabs. Like I said earlier (twice now) I do think JCVI might change their minds on wait with Pfizer.. I don't think the situation is quite as dire as when that decision was made and there is data to examine from Israel.

 

[Zlatan]

The mention of a special needle to get that last extra sixth dose is concerning. That means a squarer cut sharp end to lift it all without sucking air. In turn that means a more blunt and painful skin entry for people frightened of injections, not very helpful.
.

Can't see why anybody should get a blunt needle. Everybody get a fresh one, I, d hope.
I believe its the syringe design with regards tidal air in the syringe???

 

[Nev]

But just sounds a bit amateurish. To make sure there is let's say 10 cc in vial they put 12 in. Which I, d guess is about the volume but whether it is or not they were planning on wasting 20%???
They don't even do that with smarties..

I have spoken to family members about this very thing about a week ago. I was under the assumption that giving injections would be fairly straight forward here are a couple of things they told me.

1. For many health staff even the ones that administer the flu injection, having to draw up the vaccine from a vile is now fairly rare. The flu injections for example are usually already filled into the injection, so all the staff have to do is unpack and use.

2. Drawing vaccine from a vile can be quite tricky, not only does one have to draw the correct amount one has to ensure no air has entered the liquid. Manufacturers realise this and so will usually include slightly more liquid than the vile is meant to provide. So for example a vile made to provide 5 injections will often have enough for 6 or 6.5 for example, the reason being some liquid may be wasted getting rid of air from the injection of the first 5.

Like anything the more one does of something the better one gets at it, but I imagine it takes a dozen or so injections before each health person has it down pat.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm surprised this is in the Express

Doctor warns first dose of Pfizer jab less effective than expected as UK delay second shot ISRAEL's leading doctor has claimed the first instalment of the Pfizer vaccine did not decrease infection rates as much as he had hoped.

And this too
COVID-19: Vaccine may be less effective against South Africa variant, study finds UK's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance told Sky News that coronavirus variants were a "real issue of concern".

At this point someone will point out on here that it was "my selfish attitude" that was to blame and brought this about.
Have a nice day

 

[oldgroaner]

If we continue along the present path pursued by this government we are facing worse devastation than that visited on us by the Black Death
We need all the resources available to research and create either an effective vaccine , or effective means of treating the virus effects, including the long term ones
Frankly as a nation we need help and to help others ourselves.
This is a problem the whole Human race needs to cooperate on solving.

 

[oyster]

But just sounds a bit amateurish. To make sure there is let's say 10 cc in vial they put 12 in. Which I, d guess is about the volume but whether it is or not they were planning on wasting 20%???
They don't even do that with smarties..

To use real numbers, each dose absolutely MUST be 0.3 mL. Each vial contains 0.45 mL.

Thaw.
Gently invert.
Add diluent (1.8 mL sodium chloride solution).
Gently invert.
Draw 0.3 mL.

As I see it, 0.45 plus 1.8 produces 2.25 mL. (Though maybe lightly less.)

Which would allow seven doses if all usable.

 

[oyster]

I have spoken to family members about this very thing about a week ago. I was under the assumption that giving injections would be fairly straight forward here are a couple of things they told me.

1. For many health staff even the ones that administer the flu injection, having to draw up the vaccine from a vile is now fairly rare. The flu injections for example are usually already filled into the injection, so all the staff have to do is unpack and use.

2. Drawing vaccine from a vile can be quite tricky, not only does one have to draw the correct amount one has to ensure no air has entered the liquid. Manufacturers realise this and so will usually include slightly more liquid than the vile is meant to provide. So for example a vile made to provide 5 injections will often have enough for 6 or 6.5 for example, the reason being some liquid may be wasted getting rid of air from the injection of the first 5.

Like anything the more one does of something the better one gets at it, but I imagine it takes a dozen or so injections before each health person has it down pat.

The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does come in multi-dose vials.

UK instructions here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948517/Information_for_Healthcare_Professionals_on_Pfizer_BioNTech.pdf

 

[oyster]

I'm surprised this is in the Express

Doctor warns first dose of Pfizer jab less effective than expected as UK delay second shot ISRAEL's leading doctor has claimed the first instalment of the Pfizer vaccine did not decrease infection rates as much as he had hoped.

And this too
COVID-19: Vaccine may be less effective against South Africa variant, study finds UK's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance told Sky News that coronavirus variants were a "real issue of concern".

At this point someone will point out on here that it was "my selfish attitude" that was to blame and brought this about.
Have a nice day

Reduction of infection rates after one dose is desirable but even if it simply helped to keep people out of hospital, it would be a benefit. I have not yet seen clear Israel experience of that.

 

[Zlatan]

Covid: Israel vaccine fears 'out of context and inaccurate'

Israel is likely to be the first country to see an impact from vaccination - but it is still too early.

www.bbc.com

Good article from BBC.
Groups start to diverge (on number of infections) 2 weeks after first shot.(33% fewer after 2 weeks and still improving, not trial but actual figures Israel)
Also mentions point Jesus has been making that efficy is not as important as preventing serious illness/death. (which vaccine isn't showing yet but its too early)

 

[oyster]

Covid: Israel vaccine fears 'out of context and inaccurate'

Israel is likely to be the first country to see an impact from vaccination - but it is still too early.

www.bbc.com

Good article from BBC.
Groups start to diverge (on number of infections) 2 weeks after first shot.(33% fewer after 2 weeks and still improving, not trial but actual figures Israel)
Also mentions point Jesus has been making that efficy is not as important as preventing serious illness/death. (which vaccine isn't showing yet but its too early)

Why do we see the same poor phrasing again and again:

And it stops hundreds of thousands of people from dying every year.

I'd think it amazing to be able to die every year!

 

[Danidl]

Why do we see the same poor phrasing again and again:

And it stops hundreds of thousands of people from dying every year.

I'd think it amazing to be able to die every year!

.. interesting.
Once on the old Twilight Zone TV series of the 1960 s they dealt with this topic. I think the episode was called ." Death takes a holiday". It starts in a typical American town where the local newspaper realises that they have not published a death notice for a few days, ..and it escalated from there into global financial panic.

 

[oldgroaner]

Why do we see the same poor phrasing again and again:

And it stops hundreds of thousands of people from dying every year.

I'd think it amazing to be able to die every year!

That's nothing,Boris does it every Wednesday at PMQ's

 

[oldgroaner]

This has to be 2021's Cummings moment
Boris's father had his second injection on time.
Needless to say this has gone down as well as Corbyn turning up at Tel Aviv airport!

 

[oldgroaner]

Incidentally I have just read that Israel is now giving second doses on 21 day basis
" Dr Ash now claims the vaccine didn't work as well after the first jab, despite the country pressing ahead with the recommended strategy of two doses within three weeks.
The World Health Organization and Pfizer and BioNTech, which made the vaccine, refused to give their blessing to Britain's plan to space the two doses of of the jab by more than a month.