Brexit, for once some facts.

Jesus H Christ

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Sage members may be independent but Whitty & Van-Tam are hired scientists/doctors like hired lawyers. They are paid to front the briefings.
Do you think a lawyer would refuse to defend someone if he suspect the guy is guilty?
That’s not a valid comparison.
 
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Woosh

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That’s not a valid comparison.
Sage gives advice, BJ waits for the Telegraph to suggest what to do then send Whitty & Van-Tam on TV to explain why.
They are not hired to contradict their boss.
That's all there is to it.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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No. Jeremy faced with Covid-19 would have dithered and still be dithering with no decisions. That is what he does when faced with a choice between two bad options, so he sensibly does nothing, leaving it to fate.

So we'd have effectively ended up like Sweden at doing as little as possible about the pandemic.

After all this time their death rate is 24% below ours, their kids haven't lost education or missed exams and they haven't added countless billions to their national debt, a huge win, win. Against our lose, lose of the world's highest death rate, crippling debt and kids education in chaos.

Just as I told you all would happen last year when I praised Sweden's approach, but as usual you wouldn't accept it.

And please don't once again try to tell me Sweden is different because that is bunkum. They are directly comparable.
.
Sweden population density is 24. 5 people per square km.
England's population density is 275 people per square km.

Swedes historically follow government advice, don't have massive travel hubs like Heathrow etc. Don't have mass congregations for sport (every major town in UK has at least one 50k seater ground)
Swedes tend not to meet in massive groups (ie like drinkers in Newcastle and every where else)
And probably more importantly a great deal of Swede's live alone.(by memory 30% but could be wrong)
You don't have to think about it much to realise Sweden in any pandemic will fare batter than Belgium... However, compared to their neighbours with pretty similar socio economic groups, geographical situation (Denmark and Norway) they have done far far worse.
Suspect had we taken Swede's approach we, d be hitting 200k deaths.
As I, ve said all along we need to put politics, hate and argument away and search for the real objective reasons various countries have apparently coped better.
Why is San Marino the worst?
I wasn't making a link to Mexico and Who. Just mentioned in same post.
My point was Who knew about the potential of this last January. Why wasn't international travel stopped immediately. What did Who do in early stages. Blamed countries. There needs to be a world wide authority capable of stopping whatever it sees fit immediately it thinks it would be beneficial. As far as I can see Who are toothless and simply offer advice after the horse has bolted. They should have been bolting the stable door and didn't.
 
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oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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Sage members may be independent but Whitty & Van-Tam are hired scientists/doctors like hired lawyers. They are paid to front the briefings.
Do you think a lawyer would refuse to defend someone if he suspect the guy is guilty?
In general, barristers cannot act for clients they KNOW are guilty. Though it is pretty obvious that they might suspect their clients are guilty (indeed, someone thinks they are guilty, or can make some sort of a case that they are guilty, or there wouldn't have been charges and a trial).

But there is no cab-rank principle for Sage members/independent advisers.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Think I, ll believe BMJ rather than Flecc.
Their final comnent
"The UK is not Sweden, what worked there might not work at all here".

Ps
Point about Mexico was if their deaths are of order 4 times greater than reported its possible many other countries are. Do you really believe we, d be getting truth from China, Vietnam, Thailand, Argentina??? Because I certainly don't. Doubt even Spanish are being truthful.
 
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flecc

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Sweden population density is 24. 5 people per square km.
England's population density is 275 people per square km.

Swedes historically follow government advice, don't have massive travel hubs like Heathrow etc. Don't have mass congregations for sport (every major town in UK has at least one 50k seater ground)
Swedes tend not to meet in massive groups (ie like drinkers in Newcastle and every where else)
And probably more importantly a great deal of Swede's live alone.(by memory 30% but could be wrong)
You don't have to think about it much to realise Sweden in any pandemic will fare batter than Belgium... However, compared to their neighbours with pretty similar socio economic groups, geographical situation (Denmark and Norway) they have done far far worse.
Suspect had we taken Swede's approach we, d be hitting 200k deaths.
Bunkum.

Last year you were all telling me that we should have done like South Korea, China, New Zealand, Germany et al. All very different in various ways to Britain and often to huge degrees.

Yet you say Sweden, which is far more similar to Britain than you think and often vastly more different than those countries, is so different that any comparison is invalid.

Once again, bunkum, proven by your own inconsistency just cited.

When the fundamantal reason why we've done so badly finally dawns on you, you might begin to understand better.
.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Think I, ll believe BMJ rather than Flecc.
Their final comnent
"The UK is not Sweden, what worked there might not work at all here".
You can't even recognise a political excuse intrinsic in the word "might".

It's their desperation, clutching at straws to try to maintain we did right.

We didn't and our outcome proves it. Sweden did right and their disease, financial and educational outcome proves it.
.
 

Zlatan

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That's rubbish Flecc. How on earth can anybody not think population density is going to affect a pandemic.??
Also Sweden enjoys a higher standard of living and unfortunately as we, ve all become only too aware the poor have suffered most.. Along with our Asian communities. (which represent 8% of our population and 1.8 % of Sweden's)
And, yes Sweden does have a massive immigrant population but the bulk of it from Finland.
I, ve no idea why you are holding Sweden up as a good example any way. Finland, Norway, and Denmark, all of similar socio economic and geopolitical make up have done far better.
You aren't being objective flecc and if nobody is in future we will drift into all this again.
Had Boris followed Sweden he, d be out now. Their chief epidemiologist came to see Boris before Christmas. Thank god he ignored him.


I doubt Guardian will be putting any spin on it that could see Boris in a better light.
Sweden's strategy failed, they came through it OK for all reasons explained.
They have got through it inspite of their strategy, not because if it. Go on Worldometer and compare with neighbours.
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Who do you suggest voting for OG?
Because
A) There isn't an election.
B) If there was there is no alternative.

How many times OG, just put your money where your mouth is and do something. Join Volt UK or something. Stand as an MP, but FFS stop repeating your same crap on here.
You have all these high ideals and ideas about how bad our govt is but do feck all, apart from roll up for your vaccine, then moan at the wait, then tell us all you have a right for second, tell Jesus he, s thick, tell me I, m an apologist.
Blah, blah, blah.
You are worse than a hypocrite.
We have not got opportunity to vote or not vote for Boris and I never said anything remotely approaching I, d vote for Boris next time.
Jesus OG. Your madness has returned.
So now I'm worse than a hypocrite? and mad too?
Try reading my post the reference to voting for Boris wasn't even aimed at you
I am simply continuing to tell the truth and if you don't like it, you know what to do about it

Now then about this
"How many times OG, just put your money where your mouth is and do something. Join Volt UK or something. Stand as an MP, but FFS stop repeating your same crap on here."
Since I have a job 24/7/365 as carer for a wife with terminal dementia, do you imagine I am going to stop doing that because you suggest I do?

Grow up, some of us have had to.
Take your advice and shove it.
 
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Wicky

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You can't even recognise a political excuse intrinsic in the word "might".

It's their desperation, clutching at straws to try to maintain we did right.

We didn't and our outcome proves it. Sweden did right and their disease, financial and educational outcome proves it.
.
Re, Sweden - not so

 
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Jesus H Christ

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 31, 2020
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Sage gives advice, BJ waits for the Telegraph to suggest what to do then send Whitty & Van-Tam on TV to explain why.
They are not hired to contradict their boss.
That's all there is to it.
You are calling into question the integrity of two professors of medicine. I don’t think you have sufficient reason to call them out as liars and hired mouthpieces.

Van-Tam and Whitty went against Johnson over the Cummings debacle, so that gives me reason to cut them some slack and listen to what they say.
 
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