Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

Just suppose, to humour me, I am a doctor. My wife is a nurse. My daughter is a care worker. My son works at the bus company. My parents are retired and live in a remote house (perfectly contentedly, I hasten to add).

We decide to go on a holiday abroad. (Mad, but we are like that.) Completely without our knowledge, we all get infected on holiday. We return to hit the new quarantine.

Seems that I, wife and daughter are exempt by virtue of being health or care workers. So we are free to pass on covid-19 to patients, to care home residents, to colleagues who also work in these fields.

Son is exempt because he is a road passenger transport worker. So he is free to pass on covid-19 to all the passengers he comes into contact with. And his colleagues.

But my older parents, who might hardly see anyone, and represent next to no likelihood of passing on covid-19, have to quarantine themselves.

Makes sense, doesn’t it?
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/coronavirus-travel-quarantine-uk-exempt-jobs-professions-a9541331.html

I'd have thought the people who need to be quarantined are those who come into contact with others, especially others who are already ill or infirm.

(Of course, if we had the ability to test and demonstrate no risk of passing on covid-19, that could end a period of quarantine early to the benefit of everyone.)

 

[oldgroaner]

Just a technicality of course
https://universalcreditsuffer.com/2020/05/31/cummings-spare-cottage-without-planning-permission-and-pays-no-council-tax/
Nothing to see here move along

 

[Danidl]

Take England out of the equation and lets see how the rest of the UK have fared?
N.Ireland would have the lowest figures per capita in all of the British Isles, and would have been even better had the Irish gov taken it upon themselves to shut down Dublin Airport to international passengers who then were allowed to cross the border.... all of those should have been quarantined for 14 days in the nearest facility.

also...

Sweden’s coronavirus experiment has well and truly failed

The country gained early praise from some for shunning lockdown, but it now has one of the highest per-capita rates of coronavirus death in the world

www.wired.co.uk

Sweden’s coronavirus experiment has well and truly failed

The country gained early praise from some for shunning lockdown, but it now has one of the highest per-capita rates of coronavirus death in the world

More than 4,000 people have died in a country of ten million. For seven of the last 14 days, Sweden has had the highest number of deaths per capita in the world.

I fully agree Tommie. It's still not to late to do something about the Dublin Dodge or the equivalent Belfast one. RoIs failure was not realising that those nurses in the HSE Acute wards, had hubbies working as care assistants in the nursing homes. Unfortunately I think we have to wait until we get a new government before compulsory quarantine can be enforced. The glitch is that all our Health Regulations are linked to a 1947 Health Act ,and that only works within the National Territory. The Common Travel Area is an equivalent power Act which enables the free movement. What would help enormously is a gentleman's agreement to test all transits across the Irish sea. RoI and NI
The use of thermometers is extremely simple to enforce .. probably not foolproof but might cut down potential risk by 25% .
The other obvious one is to require all ferry and airline passengers to do one of those quick CV19 tests , before boarding . The results would be available by end of flight or docking. The cost is probably about 2 cups of cappuccino . ..And NI can take a bow, ..the Bosch test is based on NI chemistry

 

[Wicky]

All depends if any countries accept Brits abroad - Even if this comes about possibly 3 weeks holiday abroad could at best be 3 weeks confined to hotel room at destination before returning...

Goodness knows the cost of tickets for 1/3rd full airliners if social distancing is still implemented

"Ministers have hinted that after 29 June a series of bilateral deals, described as “air bridges”, will allow holidaymakers to travel to and from the most popular destinations"

 

[sjpt]

Credit where credit is due. A friend got a chest infection. Called doctor, probably not CV so given antibiotics, but just in case 7 days isolation, 14 days for his family.

Test done on him and family yesterday, they said 3 working days for result. Result today (Sunday) (negative I'm pleased to say); isolation cancelled. And the antibiotics have cleared the chest.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

Are we still working to the five alert levels? The ones where we needed to be at level 3 before we could progress to the sort of lockdown easements we are embarking on tomorrow. Last I heard we were at Level 4, then no one mentioned them again and it all seems to have gone out the window. Anyone know what’s happening?

 

[oyster]

Are we still working to the five alert levels? The ones where we needed to be at level 3 before we could progress to the sort of lockdown easements we are embarking on tomorrow. Last I heard we were at Level 4, then no one mentioned them again and it all seems to have gone out the window. Anyone know what’s happening?

We are sort-of moving to 3. -ish. Maybe.

Jane Deith, Channel 4, asks about easing of lockdown using Covid alert system. If alert level hasn’t changed, what has? Jenrick says we are still at 4, but moving to 3. Says steps that are being taken are modest and cautious and “entirely consistent” with the PM’s message about alerts. ​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/may/31/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-lockdown-latest-updates?page=with:block-5ed3cea78f084df971c8d08f

(Arse-about-face isn't it? Don't we set the level based on what has happened - not predict and hope.)

 

[sjpt]

Working with solid evidence. Based on the most recent figures for June (eg last year) we see no cases of CV2.

 

[RossG]

Just suppose, to humour me, I am a doctor. My wife is a nurse. My daughter is a care worker. My son works at the bus company. My parents are retired and live in a remote house (perfectly contentedly, I hasten to add).

We decide to go on a holiday abroad. (Mad, but we are like that.) Completely without our knowledge, we all get infected on holiday. We return to hit the new quarantine.

Seems that I, wife and daughter are exempt by virtue of being health or care workers. So we are free to pass on covid-19 to patients, to care home residents, to colleagues who also work in these fields.

Son is exempt because he is a road passenger transport worker. So he is free to pass on covid-19 to all the passengers he comes into contact with. And his colleagues.

But my older parents, who might hardly see anyone, and represent next to no likelihood of passing on covid-19, have to quarantine themselves.

Makes sense, doesn’t it?
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/coronavirus-travel-quarantine-uk-exempt-jobs-professions-a9541331.html

I'd have thought the people who need to be quarantined are those who come into contact with others, especially others who are already ill or infirm.

(Of course, if we had the ability to test and demonstrate no risk of passing on covid-19, that could end a period of quarantine early to the benefit of everyone.)

But are not all health care workers tested anyway one way or another ? A neighbour of mine who works in a care home had a test yesterday, she's ok health wise the test is just standard. As I mentioned before on here the place she works in is CV free.
As I understand it all keyworkers, which I believe includes supermarket staff & bus drivers can if they so desire be tested. Of course they might have to wait up to 15 days for the result

 

[oyster]

But are not all health care workers tested anyway one way or another ? A neighbour of mine who works in a care home had a test yesterday, she's ok health wise the test is just standard. As I mentioned before on here the place she works in is CV free.
As I understand it all keyworkers, which I believe includes supermarket staff & bus drivers can if they so desire be tested. Of course they might have to wait up to 15 days for the result

So the exemption from quarantine should perhaps be on the basis of testing - not just job title. And quarantine should apply until such time as test results are known.

Both to ensure that those who could pass it on are identified before they do so. And to release those who can be released as soon as possible. Imposing quarantine that could sensible be lifted after a test is unacceptable. Bad enough having it imposed without having to endure the full time despite tests being available.

 

[Nev]

I am a bit confused after reading an article in the Guardian I will link to it at the end of this posting. I must admit I assumed (it would appear incorrectly) that people who are infected by the virus but remain asymptomatic go on to produce anti bodies against the virus. This does not seem to be the case, so if an anti body test is given to one of these people it will falsely indicate they have not had the virus.

It also seems that a large proportion of people that get the virus are asymptomatic, we are talking of figures of 40% plus. It is not clear to me how long the virus stays in an asymptomatic person, but I am assuming that after say 3 weeks to a month or so our current tests would not be able to show this person has had the virus. Or does the virus just stay in these people continually but not cause them any harm.

What this is suggesting to me is that perhaps a lot more people than we think have actually had the virus. Here is the article I am referring to.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/30/could-nearly-half-of-those-with-covid-19-have-no-idea-they-are-infected

 

[RossG]

The more we read on this virus the more confusing it gets. If you are asymptomatic you can carry CV without showing symptoms, still it could be that you are but they're not detectable. For example it's been discovered it can in some cases effect your eyesight, but if that's a bit dicky anyway you might not be aware of any changes.

That Guardian article mentions the possibility some people might want to wear a mask at work, then on returning home pop it in the washing machine at 60c and wash their hands.
But there again it's said this virus is not all that robust hence you can easily wash it off your hands, so then although you hands may have come in direct contact with CV say on a door handle, you can simply wash away with hand wash under a tap. However a face mask that would not have had the same level of contamination (unless you open doors with your teeth) needs 60c in a machine...why such strenuous a scrub for a mask but not for your hands ?

 

[Danidl]

The more we read on this virus the more confusing it gets. If you are asymptomatic you can carry CV without showing symptoms, still it could be that you are but they're not detectable. For example it's been discovered it can in some cases effect your eyesight, but if that's a bit dicky anyway you might not be aware of any changes.

That Guardian article mentions the possibility some people might want to wear a mask at work, then on returning home pop it in the washing machine at 60c and wash their hands.
But there again it's said this virus is not all that robust hence you can easily wash it off your hands, so then although you hands may have come in direct contact with CV say on a door handle, you can simply wash away with hand wash under a tap. However a face mask that would not have had the same level of contamination (unless you open doors with your teeth) needs 60c in a machine...why such strenuous a scrub for a mask but not for your hands ?

I think there is still an amount of magical thinking going on.
Very few pathogens can survive above 50 degrees ,so 60 degrees with or without detergent will kill almost anything. There are a robust few which need autoclave .. pressure cooker temperatures of 120 c. , but thats to be sure, to be sure ..
We seem to be lucky in that this CV19 has a fatty spine and even cold soapy water and a few minutes soaking will disintegrate it. A very cheap solution
Obviously there is a range of responses to a CV19 infection ,from extremely mild to extremely severe. But even the very mild infections will be detectable from nasal swabs ..other wise those people cannot be infecting others. It may even be the case that a mild dose, continues indefinitely as it does not provoke a full immune response
So basically it all comes down to testing, People in vulnerable occupations or where there is a high risk of passing on infections, need to be constantly tested , perhaps weekly or every 3 days.

 

[Woosh]

So basically it all comes down to testing,

sometime ago, someone asked the question in this thread: why shares of companies making CV tests went up much more than those researching/making a cure.
Now we know.

 

[Woosh]

It also seems that a large proportion of people that get the virus are asymptomatic, we are talking of figures of 40% plus. It is not clear to me how long the virus stays in an asymptomatic person, but I am assuming that after say 3 weeks to a month or so our current tests would not be able to show this person has had the virus. Or does the virus just stay in these people continually but not cause them any harm.

I imagine that CV needs cells with ACE2 receptors on their surface to cause infection: throat, lungs, arteries, heart, kidneys and intestines.
If you get it through your food, the symptoms may be milder than in your throat. If it gets to your arteries, kidneys or heart, then you may die.
Differences in ethnicity lead to differences in level and where.

 

[oyster]

The more we read on this virus the more confusing it gets. If you are asymptomatic you can carry CV without showing symptoms, still it could be that you are but they're not detectable. For example it's been discovered it can in some cases effect your eyesight, but if that's a bit dicky anyway you might not be aware of any changes.

That Guardian article mentions the possibility some people might want to wear a mask at work, then on returning home pop it in the washing machine at 60c and wash their hands.
But there again it's said this virus is not all that robust hence you can easily wash it off your hands, so then although you hands may have come in direct contact with CV say on a door handle, you can simply wash away with hand wash under a tap. However a face mask that would not have had the same level of contamination (unless you open doors with your teeth) needs 60c in a machine...why such strenuous a scrub for a mask but not for your hands ?

Bear in mind that a face mask will become contaminated with lots of other bacteria and viruses. We do not want them to be breeding grounds for any of them, even if they have relatively low disease-causing capability.

 

[oyster]

I think there is still an amount of magical thinking going on.
Very few pathogens can survive above 50 degrees ,so 60 degrees with or without detergent will kill almost anything. There are a robust few which need autoclave .. pressure cooker temperatures of 120 c. , but thats to be sure, to be sure ..
We seem to be lucky in that this CV19 has a fatty spine and even cold soapy water and a few minutes soaking will disintegrate it. A very cheap solution
Obviously there is a range of responses to a CV19 infection ,from extremely mild to extremely severe. But even the very mild infections will be detectable from nasal swabs ..other wise those people cannot be infecting others. It may even be the case that a mild dose, continues indefinitely as it does not provoke a full immune response
So basically it all comes down to testing, People in vulnerable occupations or where there is a high risk of passing on infections, need to be constantly tested , perhaps weekly or every 3 days.

A fairly new test is claiming to work on saliva alone and to be getting positive results from people who would slip under the radar with existing testing - asymptomatic and earlier after infection. Also seems to be pretty simple to process - changes colour after a few simple steps.

It is a pre-print, unverified paper with at least some involved having to declare interests, but here it is - EasyCOV:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.30.20117291v1

 

[oldgroaner]

They gone bananas in the Express I never thought they would print this


Brexit warning: UK desperately needs trade deal more than EU experts believe
THE UK desperately needs a comprehensive post-Brexit free trade agreement with the EU more than Brussels requires it with London, political experts have warned, as the impact of a no deal scenario could be "far more severe" for Britain.

The ignorance of the reader comments is amazing for example
"
Considering that our trade with the eu is about 12% and falling, and the uk has a trade deficit of 60bn, it seems that the eu has more to lose.

It's actually 43% but since when to facts matter to Brexit fans?

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

A fairly new test is claiming to work on saliva alone and to be getting positive results from people who would slip under the radar with existing testing - asymptomatic and earlier after infection. Also seems to be pretty simple to process - changes colour after a few simple steps.

It is a pre-print, unverified paper with at least some involved having to declare interests, but here it is - EasyCOV:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.30.20117291v1

I think without a vaccine or effective treatment, a simple home test with a quick result is the answer. A test which people can easily get a supply of and self test 2 - 3 times per week. I suppose the scale of production necessary would make it affordable for people to do this.

 

[oyster]

our trade with the eu is about 12% and falling

Whatever the percentage (and 12% is nonsense), the key point being ignored is that it is falling but we are not seeing significant increases to the rest of the world to replace those exports.