Brexit, for once some facts.

Fingers

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They conned themselves by not being interested enough. The statements from Ted Heath were plastered all over newspaper billboards, one didn't even need to buy a newspaper. Heath was quoted extensively on radio and TV news in both 1972 when we joined and in 1975 before the referendum.

And just to rub the message home, the anti European project views of Tony Benn and other anti MPs and ministers were also extensively publicised.

The notion that anyone had the reality kept from them is pure bunkum, the truth and propaganda from both the for and anti sides were plain for all to see and hear.

What actually happened was that in 1975 a majority of nearly 70% got carried away by the pro EU propaganda, just as a majority of almost 52% got carried away by the Leave propaganda in 2016.

Any blame for either outcome rests with the voters who didn't apply enough thought.
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Well I can only take your word for that as I wasn't around to see the billboards that said we are joining a political union and not a trading bloc.

Literally everyone I have spoke to of the age that could vote on the subject has said the opposite.

And overwhelmingly given the chance to vote again they voted out and many said the reason was that they felt duped the first time.

You can't pretend this isn't true.

You are basically saying they voted for something in the first place but didn't know enough about it but then voted the opposite way the next time but still didn't know what they voted for. What a strange and complex narrative you hardcore remainists weave.
 
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Woosh

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Meanwhile BJ has to factor in this biting him on the botty...

A no-deal Brexit is now "the only acceptable deal", says Nigel Farage.
The Brexit Party leader said his party would fight in every seat at a general election if the government tried to pass the existing withdrawal agreement.
But he said if Boris Johnson "summoned the courage" to pursue a no deal, The Brexit Party would work with him.
He added: "A Johnson government committed to doing the right thing and The Brexit Party working in tandem would be unstoppable." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49482032
I could see that brexit will come to just remain or no deal, the EU saw that back in July 2016.
brexit is a civil war among the tories.
Now it's spread to the whole country because the tories are in power.
 
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flecc

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And overwhelmingly given the chance to vote again they voted out and many said the reason was that they felt duped the first time.
I'm not pretending this isn't true, I've stated as much in my post by saying how they were carried away by propaganda on both occasions.

To spell it out again, first time they preferred the pro propaganda, second time the anti propaganda.

Both were undeniably packed with lies, but the truth was there both times for those who bothered to look at what was right under their noses.

If we had third referendum now that's very likely to result in a Remain vote, those who switched their vote back to remain would no doubt say they felt conned by the Leave campain. Indeed they've already said as much, the £350 millions on the Leave bus for example.

People who change their mind make excuses for that, it's human nature.
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wheeler

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I don't expect any remainists to see a solution but there are many and quite frankly they seem pretty straightforward.
I suspect many complex problems seem straightforward to someone with your level of technical and engineering skills, as you have previously demonstrated on this thread.

It will take some good faith and a bit of trust at first but where there is a will....
You forgot to include "lots of oomph".
 
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Fingers

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I'm not pretending this isn't true, I've stated as much in my post by saying how they were carried away by propaganda on both occasions.

To spell it out again, first time they preferred the pro propaganda, second time the anti propaganda.

Both were undeniably packed with lies, but the truth was there both times for those who bothered to look at what was right under their noses.

If we had third referendum now that's very likely to result in a Remain vote, those who switched their vote back to remain would no doubt say they felt conned by the Leave campain. Indeed they've already said as much, the £350 millions on the Leave bus for example.

People who change their mind make excuses for that, it's human nature.
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Show me the something that said the first vote was for ever closer political union then Flecc.

Just one billboard. One advert in the papers.

They were sold free market. Jobs. Cheaper food etc.

The masses were not told it meant the UK becoming a state of the EU. It's not about pro propaganda or anti propaganda it was about revenge for being duped and not wanting to be part of a project that you want.

Dress it up to fix your narrative but I am dealing facts.
 
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Danidl

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I'm not sure if it's a basic English comprehension problem or a deeper level of misunderstanding.

I will try again.

In the end the 1975 referendum confirmed Britain’s membership by some 17 million votes to 8 million


The polls show people who voted to go in the EC if the first referendum overwhelmingly decided to leave second time around with some swing wouldn't you agree?

Why was that? Well one of the biggest reasons people gave was they didn't know they would be made to be part of a Federation. A state of the EU. Centrally controlled by the EU with less and less control on who ran the show. They thought it was a market. A trading bloc.

Now there can be many reasons put up for this. All are valid to an extant but the fact is these people felt duped. They got their revenge in the end though.

Is that clear?

By the way this is and interesting article if you have the time to read it. It's not biased one way or the other but is interesting how government (s ) have flip flopped. For instance the Treasury thought joing was a mistake back then. It now thinks leaving is a mistake.

My English is quite passable. My query referred to your use of the word overwhelmingly . Now since the next word is reject it has to refer to recent events. In any event the majority of those elder voters in 1975 a were deceased.by the time of the referendum. ..(the median age in 1975 was 34 years and that was 41 years prior to the referendum or a median 75 age. .life expectancy was 62 for persons born in 1943. )
And yes that is an interesting article. But as with any similar ones the past in another country and cannot be revisited.
 
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Wicky

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The masses were not told it meant the UK becoming a state of the EU. It's not about pro propaganda or anti propaganda it was about revenge for being duped and not wanting to be part of a project that you want.
Here we go again - you were sold on a vague neboulous concept of 'taking back control' - funnily enough part of that aspect was Cameron representing Remain - so it could be said a significant part was folk registering a protest vote against the then current govt in power.

EU issue was yeast stirred into the leave propaganda...

 

Danidl

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You could have multiple transit routes. You could also have separate number plates for business/trade vehicles and different plates for personal/leisure journeys/vehicles.

Point is there are real solutions if there was a will.
Finally there are some points we can agree on. There are real solutions and they are workable. The obvious one is that the all Ireland market remains for food processing. Any goods moving to the UK from NI producers are sealed in containers by customs inspectors at the factories and fast tracked. Any goods not so sealed need to be inspected at the port of Belfast . Ditto for goods going to the EU mainland from RoI ,except the ports are now Rosslare, Cork and Dublin. Customs, Health and Safety , Food inspectors working in the factories in the RoI ensure that there is compliance regarding the providence of raw materials. ..eg that substandard chicken has not been substituted . All food materials originating anywhere on the Island are acceptable.
The main purpose of a Backstop is to prevent the re-emergence of a hard border on the Island particularly one 310 miles long.
 
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flecc

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Show me the something that said the first vote was for ever closer political union then Flecc.

Just one billboard. One advert in the papers.

They were sold free market. Jobs. Cheaper food etc.

The masses were not told it meant the UK becoming a state of the EU. It's not about pro propaganda or anti propaganda it was about revenge for being duped and not wanting to be part of a project that you want.

Dress it up to fix your narrative but I am dealing facts.
No you aren't dealing with facts, your displaying a belief in what you would have liked, to the exclusion of the truth that also existed in parallel.

Of course I can't show the street newspaper billboards from that time or play recordings of the news back then.

I've shown you exactly what Ted Heath said at the time of joining the EEC and OG has shown what he said at the time of the referendum. Both those are online, as are too all the anti MP's statements from that time. All were widely publicised on the news in all forms at those times. That's how I knew what to look up, and if I knew back then, so could anyone else.

As I posted, people voted for the propaganda they liked both in 1975 and 2016, and those who got it wrong just make excuses for it later, such as "We weren't told", putting the blame elsewhere just as people always do.

As I've agreed, they were conned by their choice of propaganda and failed to listen to or read the opposing messages.

Below is a link to Tony Benns anti EU warnings about the 1975 referendum vote, all published elsewhere at the time. The Heath message was that we are joining into an economic and political union, Benn's message was warning us not to, for precisely the Leavers feelings about the EU. It cannot be said the people couldn't know back then:

Benn link
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oldgroaner

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No. You would declare the goods online to match the number plate.

Random checks and heavy fines would be the deterrent to false claims.

I don't expect any remainists to see a solution but there are many and quite frankly they seem pretty straightforward. It will take some good faith and a bit of trust at first but where there is a will....
Oh, come of it, it's a smugglers charter, good will?
read spirit of utterly unrestricted free enterprise (smuggling for short, far too easy to do)
 

OxygenJames

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lets look at your babble
"Funny how you support a protectionist cartel that prevents new businesses from competing - pushing up prices for ordinary consumers - all in the name of 'peace' and 'unity' or some other such platitudes. ."

What happens in reality is 27 Nations co-operate to ensure that the general level of infrastructure, industry and commerce rise and are not skewed by the pirates of the sort that the "Adam Smith Institute" promote, who's mantra is profit and to hell with social consequences.
And yes is there something you don't like about promoting peace and unity.
More profit to be made out of wars? is that why you want to make America Great again?

Then you wrote this
"And at the same time you think dismantling this protectionist cartel would primarily benefit the 'tax dodgers'."

Getting confused are you?
There is no protectionist cartel, and what will benefit tax dodgers is escaping the EU laws coming in the quash their excesses.
Oh yes! I am indeed in favour of that, putting the screws on those Tax dodgers ticks all the boxes for me!

Too mad, you say, looked at from the point of view of people with the morals of vultures, no doubt that is true

By the way, when are you going to do this with even a faint hope of success?

"But once in a while one feels compelled to challenge the absolute trash he writes.

This last effort of yours was of an even lower standard than usual.
Just a thought "Why should I spare you my reasons?"

Nothing special about you to accord you a protected status if you come on here with the MAGA claptrap you do.
We're just not going to agree on this stuff now are we. No. We are not. Oh well. So be it I guess. Have a pleasant evening OG.
 
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oyster

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Food inspectors working in the factories in the RoI ensure that there is compliance regarding the providence of raw materials. ..eg that substandard chicken has not been substituted .
But who does that job for NI? Non-EU inspectors or EU inspectors working in the UK. Either seems a questionable choice with possible difficulties.
 
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Danidl

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Its an interesting idea
there is an interesting idea, explained on the BBC News channel this morning:

The backstop will be left to UK and ROI to negotiate directly. Essentially, each side will pass a law so that only goods compatible with the regulatory regime on the destination side can be moved across the border.
Its an interesting idea..not more. The point not understood is that in this instance RoI is the EU, so an Irish act is wholly inadequate. I have provided an alternative which would meet the major Irish objection ,and would in my opinion find acceptance from the EU.
The problem is not that Ireland would be awash with substandard Empire made goods, but that the rest of the EU would be contaminated. Ireland is such a limited market, that targeting us would serve little gain.
Irrespective as to how BJ et al play this out, and I do see No Deal Crashout as the most likely, the through inspection of goods bound for the EU from Ireland will take place. The only circumstance in which this will be unnecessary will be adhering to the Withdrawal Agreement and Customs alignment.
 

oldgroaner

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You are basically saying they voted for something in the first place but didn't know enough about it but then voted the opposite way the next time but still didn't know what they voted for. What a strange and complex narrative you hardcore remainists weave.
That is truly funny!
There is nothing complicated and complex there at all
Well done, you have described exactly what the problem is.
large numbers of the public react favourably when exposed to enticing and persistent propaganda and turn off their critical faculties, even after the promises made never come true and are conveniently forgotten by those that made them
That is why they vote Conservative even though it turns out to be self harming.
Not only only do they have short memories but what memories they have can be altered by suggestion to appear to be of long standing.
The difference between "we remainists" as you call us and yourself, is our memories are clear, and can be verified and checked for accuracy.
What can you offer other than statements like
"You are basically saying they voted for something in the first place but didn't know enough about it but then voted the opposite way the next time but still didn't know what they voted for..
The evidence is concrete that the information of what they voted for was was there on both occasions.
Between those periods every failure of the British Government has been blamed on the EU
with a campaign run by the very newspaper The Daily Mail that proudly boasted of campaigning for ten years for our entry into the EEC
Are we really to assume they didn't know the nature of the organisation we were joining?
Utter rot!
On the latest referendum the voters were offered all the promises now dumped to get their vote, and now persuaded that none of those things mattered to them?

If they fall for that then they deserve to be treated as fools
 
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oldgroaner

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Show me the something that said the first vote was for ever closer political union then Flecc.

Just one billboard. One advert in the papers.

They were sold free market. Jobs. Cheaper food etc.

The masses were not told it meant the UK becoming a state of the EU. It's not about pro propaganda or anti propaganda it was about revenge for being duped and not wanting to be part of a project that you want.

Dress it up to fix your narrative but I am dealing facts.
Read this
https://infacts.org/mythbusts/voters-werent-conned-1975-referendum/
and from Hansard
"
Mrs. Margaret Thatcher (Finchley)
Yesterday the Prime Minister opened the fourth major debate in 14 years on Britain's membership of the EEC. On each of the first three occasions the Prime Minister began the day as an enthusiastic advocate of the cause that his Government were proposing. This time the Prime Minister chose to open with a very low-key speech leaving out most of the broader issues or dwelling on them only briefly.

We are aware of the right hon. Gentleman's problems. If we were not aware of them yesterday, we have been made aware of them in Question Time today. At present he has to rely more on his political opponents than on his alleged political friends to secure the decision which he considers right for Britain.

It has been suggested in some quarters that my party might find it tempting to withdraw support in order to embarrass the Prime Minister. But we have voted consistently for Britain in Europe by a large majority and would not think of performing W-turns on this issue.

In 1961, when the right hon. Harold Macmillan first came to the House with the idea that we should make an application to the Common Market for membership, the Labour Party was lukewarm in the debate. Indeed, it did not vote upon the main question. On that occasion the Conservative and Liberal Parties voted 313 for the application. There were only five votes against, of which one was Conservative.

In 1967, when the Prime Minister made his application, 488 hon. Members voted for the application, and only 62 against, including 26 Conservatives.

1022In 1971, on the result of the application, 356 hon. Members voted for it and 244 against, which included some of ours.

Throughout, our record has been consistently that the vast majority of the Conservative Party have voted for the European idea in support of making applications, even when some of the right hon. Gentleman's party did not vote in support of the first application, and again we have supported the idea of Britain in the European Community.

The Prime Minister dealt mainly with the renegotiations and the Labour Party manifesto of 1974. I do not believe that this issue will be decided on those matters. The results set out in the White Paper are difficult to assess and very complicated. I believe that the matter will be decided on the broader issues associated with membership, and it is this argument which I propose to deploy today. I will deal, first, with the case for being in the Common Market, then the case for staying in, and finally the alternatives.

First, the case for being in the Common Market. I believe, with a number of hon. Members who spoke yesterday, that the paramount case for being in is the political case for peace and security. It is taken for granted now that Western Europe, which has been the centre of troubles within our lifetime, will not embark again upon its own destruction. I think that we should not too readily take that for granted but for the tremendous efforts and constructive purpose which have led to those nations working together in the Common Market.

One of the measures of the success of the Community that we now take for granted is essentially security. I think that security is a matter not only of defence but of working together in peacetime on economic issues which concern us and of working closely together on trade, work and other social matters which affect all our peoples. The more closely we work together in that way, the better our security will be from the viewpoint of the future of our children.

I believe that people today recognise two quite different needs. First, there is the need to be part of some smaller group to which we can belong and feel and know we belong. We see that daily in a certain amount of revulsion against 1023size. [Interruption] I hear sounds coming from a certain direction. The country with perhaps the greatest devolution of power—Germany—is one of the most active members of the Common Market. So there is this need which we must all recognise and take into account in our policies and in the institutions which we fashion.

The second need is the knowledge that it is only when we get and work together that we can achieve the larger objectives which we arc seeking to achieve. It seems to me that the prospect of the Common Market fulfils both those needs —the need to identify with one's own nation and country and the need to work together as a community and an alliance of nations for the well-being and betterment of mankind.

..........................................

Just a trading arrangement eh?
 

oldgroaner

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I love it when a poll goes so very very wrong!
Brexitshambles Retweeted

Leave Means Leave
@LeaveMnsLeave


Would you support the shut down of Parliament in order to get Brexit done? RT for better results
Yes
35%
No
65%
47,789 votes · 1 day left
9:32 AM · Aug 26, 2019·Twitter for iPhone
...............................................................

What a bunch of pillocks! serves them right!
Perhaps some leave voters actually do know what they voted for?




And now leave seem to have lost the knack of conning supporters into a no deal Brexit...
I love it when a dastardly plan falls gruesomely in ruins, don't you? :cool:
 
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