Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

So many questions I'm dizzy.

Yet you failed to answer my two questions.

Why did the people who voted last time say they were not aware that joining meant becoming a state of the EU and why, given a second nibble of the cherry they overwhelmingly vote out?

It's seems straightforward to me but maybe you are too blinkered and frothing at the mouth to see it.

They felt conned.

.. which "overwhelmingly" are you referring to.?. The Referendum, when a tick in a different box by 600,000 out of 34,000,000 would have given a different result, or the decision by the HoC to overwhelmingly accept that decision and send the Article 50 letter to the EU. ,Or the General Election ,when the proponents of that decision lost their majority and remain a minority Government, or the recent EU MEP elections where MORE votes were cast for parties which were aligned with either Remain or very Soft Brexit.
Simple choice which is it?.

 

[Wicky]

That the EU realises we are actually going to leave and there is nothing parliament can do about it certainly is a good thing. It means they are more likely to give us what we want. It strengthens our negotiating position.

On the contary Boris has boxed himself in with his threats and promises. He's got 24 days and counting to come up with a meaningful cunning plan.

The prime minister agreed that the “onus” was on his government to set out a solution, telling a joint press conference with the German chancellor: “You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days – if I understood you correctly, I am more than happy with that.

The prime minister claimed there were “abundant solutions” to the border problem”

Do you think he's got a plan?

Time is running out - unless the prime minister were to do a last-minute U-turn and request a new Brexit extension after all.

EU politicians also speak of the numbers not adding up in parliament for Boris Johnson. A reason they give for not being willing to jump forward with a backstop compromise.

"There is little-to-no pressure from the rest of us in the EU on Dublin right now to find and accept a backstop compromise," one high-level EU diplomat told me.

"If we did introduce a time limit - or even if we got rid of the backstop altogether from the Withdrawal Agreement, as Boris Johnson says he wants us to do - what would be the point? The prime minister doesn't have the majority in parliament to guarantee the Brexit deal would then go through and we, the EU, would have sacrificed our principles, our reputation, exposed our single market on the island of Ireland and thrown member state Dublin under a bus voluntarily. We'd be worse off than if we just accept a no-deal Brexit is going to happen." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49475117

 

[Woosh]

The prime minister agreed that the “onus” was on his government to set out a solution,

there is an interesting idea, explained on the BBC News channel this morning:

The backstop will be left to UK and ROI to negotiate directly. Essentially, each side will pass a law so that only goods compatible with the regulatory regime on the destination side can be moved across the border.

 

[Fingers]

Funny how you support a protectionist cartel that prevents new businesses from competing - pushing up prices for ordinary consumers - all in the name of 'peace' and 'unity' or some other such platitudes.

And at the same time you think dismantling this protectionist cartel would primarily benefit the 'tax dodgers'.

No please spare me your reasons.

Fingers - we can not beat this guy. He's too mad. But once in a while one feels compelled to challenge the absolute trash he writes.

He's like a rabid dog.

As I said it's his personality if it wasn't this 'cause' or 'crusade' he would be targeted by another cult.

 

[Wicky]

there is an interesting idea, explained on the BBC News channel this morning:

The backstop will be left to UK and ROI to negotiate directly. Essentially, each side will pass a law so that only goods compatible with the regulatory regime on the destination side can be moved across the border.

Meanwhile BJ has to factor in this biting him on the botty...

A no-deal Brexit is now "the only acceptable deal", says Nigel Farage.
The Brexit Party leader said his party would fight in every seat at a general election if the government tried to pass the existing withdrawal agreement.
But he said if Boris Johnson "summoned the courage" to pursue a no deal, The Brexit Party would work with him.
He added: "A Johnson government committed to doing the right thing and The Brexit Party working in tandem would be unstoppable." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49482032

 

[Fingers]

.. which "overwhelmingly" are you referring to.?. The Referendum, when a tick in a different box by 600,000 out of 34,000,000 would have given a different result, or the decision by the HoC to overwhelmingly accept that decision and send the Article 50 letter to the EU. ,Or the General Election ,when the proponents of that decision lost their majority and remain a minority Government, or the recent EU MEP elections where MORE votes were cast for parties which were aligned with either Remain or very Soft Brexit.
Simple choice which is it?.

I'm not sure if it's a basic English comprehension problem or a deeper level of misunderstanding.

I will try again.

In the end the 1975 referendum confirmed Britain’s membership by some 17 million votes to 8 million


The polls show people who voted to go in the EC if the first referendum overwhelmingly decided to leave second time around with some swing wouldn't you agree?

Why was that? Well one of the biggest reasons people gave was they didn't know they would be made to be part of a Federation. A state of the EU. Centrally controlled by the EU with less and less control on who ran the show. They thought it was a market. A trading bloc.

Now there can be many reasons put up for this. All are valid to an extant but the fact is these people felt duped. They got their revenge in the end though.

Is that clear?

By the way this is and interesting article if you have the time to read it. It's not biased one way or the other but is interesting how government (s ) have flip flopped. For instance the Treasury thought joing was a mistake back then. It now thinks leaving is a mistake.

Brexit: The 1975 and 2016 Referenda Compared

If the past is any guide opinion will continue to swing as the effects of BREXIT unfold but these effects are as obscure as those of the decision to remain were in 1975.

www.e-ir.info

 

[Fingers]

there is an interesting idea, explained on the BBC News channel this morning:

The backstop will be left to UK and ROI to negotiate directly. Essentially, each side will pass a law so that only goods compatible with the regulatory regime on the destination side can be moved across the border.

I went over the QE Bridge the other day and forgot to pay. They have got rid of the tolls it's all online now with smart cameras reading number plates. Suffice to say I got a letter telling me I have erred with a crystal clear photograph of me in my car.

Why can't that system with some tweaking be used for the border of Ireland?

 

[Woosh]

Why can't that system with some tweaking be used for the border of Ireland?

The EU would love to slap 45% import duty on any milk going into ROI from the North...
Having a backstop means that they can't tax milk going South for processing and returns back to the North. TM saw that and thought it was a clever idea to extend the backstop to the whole of the UK. That was before she knew that the ERG would stab her for even thinking it.

if you could force all the cars to cross the border at the same bridge then yes, there wouldn't be a need for a backstop.

 

[Fingers]

The EU would love to slap 45% import duty on any milk going into ROI from the North...
Having a backstop means that they can't tax milk going South for processing and returns back to the North. TM saw that and thought it was a clever idea to extend the backstop to the whole of the UK. That was before she knew that the ERG would stab her for even thinking it.

if you could force all the cars to cross the border at the same bridge then yes, there wouldn't be a need for a backstop.

You could have multiple transit routes. You could also have separate number plates for business/trade vehicles and different plates for personal/leisure journeys/vehicles.

Point is there are real solutions if there was a will.

 

[oldgroaner]

So many questions I'm dizzy.

Yet you failed to answer my two questions.

Why did the people who voted last time say they were not aware that joining meant becoming a state of the EU and why, given a second nibble of the cherry they overwhelmingly vote out?

It's seems straightforward to me but maybe you are too blinkered and frothing at the mouth to see it.

They felt conned.

because the were promised the earth, remember?
It seems straightforward to me too.
Tell me, just what can you promise them now?
And something for you to consider , how many actually did vote in the first two referendums?
And how many of those who didn't were misled by the targetted advertising on the last week of the referendum?
As you have proved there are plenty of people who seem unable to accept facts when confronted with them.

 

[oldgroaner]

Funny how you support a protectionist cartel that prevents new businesses from competing - pushing up prices for ordinary consumers - all in the name of 'peace' and 'unity' or some other such platitudes.

And at the same time you think dismantling this protectionist cartel would primarily benefit the 'tax dodgers'.

No please spare me your reasons.

Fingers - we can not beat this guy. He's too mad. But once in a while one feels compelled to challenge the absolute trash he writes.

lets look at your babble
"Funny how you support a protectionist cartel that prevents new businesses from competing - pushing up prices for ordinary consumers - all in the name of 'peace' and 'unity' or some other such platitudes. ."

What happens in reality is 27 Nations co-operate to ensure that the general level of infrastructure, industry and commerce rise and are not skewed by the pirates of the sort that the "Adam Smith Institute" promote, who's mantra is profit and to hell with social consequences.
And yes is there something you don't like about promoting peace and unity.
More profit to be made out of wars? is that why you want to make America Great again?

Then you wrote this
"And at the same time you think dismantling this protectionist cartel would primarily benefit the 'tax dodgers'."

Getting confused are you?
There is no protectionist cartel, and what will benefit tax dodgers is escaping the EU laws coming in the quash their excesses.
Oh yes! I am indeed in favour of that, putting the screws on those Tax dodgers ticks all the boxes for me!

Too mad, you say, looked at from the point of view of people with the morals of vultures, no doubt that is true

By the way, when are you going to do this with even a faint hope of success?

"But once in a while one feels compelled to challenge the absolute trash he writes.

This last effort of yours was of an even lower standard than usual.
Just a thought "Why should I spare you my reasons?"

Nothing special about you to accord you a protected status if you come on here with the MAGA claptrap you do.

 

[oldgroaner]

He's like a rabid dog.

As I said it's his personality if it wasn't this 'cause' or 'crusade' he would be targeted by another cult.

My goodness, I post the truth and your reaction is to call me a rabid dog?
You really are pathetic.
Disprove my arguments, before you call me names, and promote your cause (other than coming on here to be a nuisance on behalf of the leave campaign)

Nobody else has been able to do so, which is telling.

 

[Wicky]

Why can't that system with some tweaking be used for the border of Ireland?

Ireland has 208 Border crossings, according to the first officially agreed count since the island was partitioned, almost a century ago.

Emails between Government technicians reveal they endured a “nightmare” trying to definitively map out all roads, paths and dirt tracks that traverse the 500km frontier. In addition to technical limitations, there was confusion about crossings where the Border runs up the middle of roads or juts in and out of routes, or where roads are privately owned on one side and publicly maintained on the other.

The joint mapping exercise involving the Department of Transport and the Northern Ireland Department for Infrastructure, which started last year, came to light after being referred to in minutes released after a Freedom of Information request.

Newly disclosed documents charting the process since then show the Border runs along the middle of 11 roads, which is more than twice the number originally believed, while the frontier meets in the middle of at least three bridges and dissects two ferry crossings. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-208-border-crossings-officials-from-north-and-south-agree-1.3474246

 

[oldgroaner]

A picture showing UK's new position on the World Stage

Spot the Boris
A legend in his own imagination....
How amusing, and to think that anyone at all could have voted him into a position of power is bizarre.
Whatever Putin contributed to this little fascist coup he is certainly getting his money's worth.
Now we are a bus queue away from the centre of power
Come home Boris before you embarrass us even more

 

[wheeler]

I went over the QE Bridge the other day and forgot to pay. They have got rid of the tolls it's all online now with smart cameras reading number plates. Suffice to say I got a letter telling me I have erred with a crystal clear photograph of me in my car.

Why can't that system with some tweaking be used for the border of Ireland?

That would only work if the cameras could see and classify the goods inside the vehicles.

 

[oldgroaner]

You could have multiple transit routes. You could also have separate number plates for business/trade vehicles and different plates for personal/leisure journeys/vehicles.

Point is there are real solutions if there was a will.

And for the entrepreneur James Bond style flip over number plates if carrying "Something hot"
I like that, makes smuggling a breeze.
Good idea you have there Fingers

 

[oldgroaner]

That would only work if the cameras could see and classify the goods inside the vehicles.

Apparently it did in this instance!

Don't give 'em your name Fingers!

 

[flecc]

They felt conned.

They conned themselves by not being interested enough. The statements from Ted Heath were plastered all over newspaper billboards, one didn't even need to buy a newspaper. Heath was quoted extensively on radio and TV news in both 1972 when we joined and in 1975 before the referendum.

And just to rub the message home, the anti European project views of Tony Benn and other anti MPs and ministers were also extensively publicised.

The notion that anyone had the reality kept from them is pure bunkum, the truth and propaganda from both the for and anti sides were plain for all to see and hear.

What actually happened was that in 1975 a majority of nearly 70% got carried away by the pro EU propaganda, just as a majority of almost 52% got carried away by the Leave propaganda in 2016.

Any blame for either outcome rests with the voters who didn't apply enough thought.
.

 

[Fingers]

That would only work if the cameras could see and classify the goods inside the vehicles.

No. You would declare the goods online to match the number plate.

Random checks and heavy fines would be the deterrent to false claims.

I don't expect any remainists to see a solution but there are many and quite frankly they seem pretty straightforward. It will take some good faith and a bit of trust at first but where there is a will....

 

[flecc]

It will take some good faith and a bit of trust at first

And that's where it falls down with the Irish border.

There can be no faith or trust where that border is concerned, and everyone knows it, hence these technical "solutions" being turned down.
.