Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

I don’t think anyone was in a position to offer anything tangible. There were aspirations and hopes and the usual tub thumping but you have to remember leave wasn’t a political party or in power.

We haven’t even left yet. The leave campaign never stopped campaigning and its propaganda, insults and lies have become mainstream. Couple that with literally the worst pm we’ve ever had and I can see why folks are unhappy and nervous but a new referendum would be more damaging to this country than even Mays deal. Imo of course. It would break the last scintilla of trust left in politics in this country.

What rot!
A referendum that puts the question do you want to continue with a mad and damaging plan that will only benefit the rich is Dangerous?
How can anyone possibly fall for that?
It is patently absurd, if Brexit is popular it will pass if not it will fail because it lacks numerical support.
Denying people the choice is a far more dangerous move, as this may anger what could well be the majority.
The only reason leave voters are against asking the question again is their fear of losing.
We keep hearing this same "A new referendum will be damaging"
But no one actually can advance any sensible reason that is so.
You can't break "any scintilla of trust in politics" where none remains anyway, that's the equivalent of flogging a dead horse.

 

[50Hertz]

I don’t think anyone was in a position to offer anything tangible. There were aspirations and hopes and the usual tub thumping but you have to remember leave wasn’t a political party or in power.

Remain offered Remain which hasn't changed since 2016, it is essentially business as usual. That was and still is a tangible quantity.

Leave offered:
The EU being very willing to offer us a very favourable trade deal.
£350 Million a week extra for the NHS.
The ability to strike trade deal around the world.

We now know that continued trade with the EU is not going to be as good, as easy. They are not willing to allow us to dictate the terms. They have and will continue to tell us what is available.

The £350 per week is not going to happen. That was a big factor for some people.

As a country, we are incapable of forging the trade deals as easily as promised. Think of it as our leaders having been on a three probationary appointment to work in the bigger, wider and nastier world. They have failed to cut the mustard. As their employer (we the public) must decide to pay them up until the end of the week and let them go. They aren't any good, they can't do the job.

This is just three examples, there are others.

We haven’t even left yet. The leave campaign never stopped campaigning and its propaganda, insults and lies have become mainstream. Couple that with literally the worst pm we’ve ever had and I can see why folks are unhappy and nervous but a new referendum would be more damaging to this country than even Mays deal. Imo of course. It would break the last scintilla of trust left in politics in this country.

Trust left town long ago, so another referendum can't really do much more damage. Not having another referendum would be as bad, if not worse.

I agree, the campaign was appalling, packed with promises no one could deliver, false scaremongering, over ambitious forecasts resulting from Brexit, emergency budgets that never happened, it goes on. What you are saying is that Brexit 2019 looks very different to Brexit 2016, so let's see what people make of it all now. Why not?

 

[Woosh]

We keep hearing this same "A new referendum will be damaging"
But no one actually can advance any sensible reason that is so.

cancelling A50 may be OK but not cancelling brexit.
until at least Labour or Conservative party puts remain on their manifestos again, another referendum will just demand another. You need support for a position from a majority of both voters and MPs, idea and muscle.

 

[Fingers]

Remain offered Remain which hasn't changed since 2016, it is essentially business as usual. That was and still is a tangible quantity.

Leave offered:
The EU being very willing to offer us a very favourable trade deal.
£350 Million a week extra for the NHS.
The ability to strike trade deal around the world.

We now know that continued trade with the EU is not going to be as good, as easy. They are not willing to allow us to dictate the terms. They have and will continue to tell us what is available.

The £350 per week is not going to happen. That was a big factor for some people.

As a country, we are incapable of forging the trade deals as easily as promised. Think of it as our leaders having been on a three probationary appointment to work in the bigger, wider and nastier world. They have failed to cut the mustard. As their employer (we the public) must decide to pay them up until the end of the week and let them go. They aren't any good, they can't do the job.

This is just three examples, there are others.



Trust left town long ago, so another referendum can't really do much more damage. Not having another referendum would be as bad, if not worse.

I agree, the campaign was appalling, packed with promises no one could deliver, false scaremongering, over ambitious forecasts resulting from Brexit, emergency budgets that never happened, it goes on. What you are saying is that Brexit 2019 looks very different to Brexit 2016, so let's see what people make of it all now. Why not?

The wording is very important here. Leave offered nothing. It suggested many things. Most positive. But it wasn’t in a position to offer anything. It wasn’t a political party or in power.

Remain did offer the status quo. People voted against that and all the fear and worry about losing your home, job world war three etc.

Leave was a vote for hope. Once you take that away you’re not left with much.

 

[Danidl]

Being wise in retrospect is easy,but there are some lessons which the UK could have taken from Ireland. We have had two major constitutional changes in recent years,both of which are were potentially highly devisive. .. abortion and same sex union.
What was done in both cases was that long before any formal decision was made that there were interparty working groups, citizen assemblies, position papers, dialogue,and a conscious effort to include and respect ,at least in language opposing viewpoints. Then and after the concensus building was done, was the formal motion presented.
Had the UK adopted a similar strategy , after the referendum, they might have been able to discern the actual will of the people . It is the strategy which the EUs Mr Barnier adopted with his continual dialogue with the governments of the 27 .
The irony is that had such a process been adopted ,and the views of people explored, the net result might not be much different than the WA.

 

[oldgroaner]

cancelling A50 may be OK but not cancelling brexit.
until at least Labour or Conservative party puts remain on their manifestos again, another referendum will just demand another. You need support for a position from a majority of both voters and MPs, idea and muscle.

Sorry but it has gone beyond that.
The people were given the choice, why should they hand it back to the Mp's?
Time they listened first then reacted by changing their ways, that was after all what the Brexit voters thought they were getting, their notion was
Parliament should not be in a position to determine what it wants to give the people , but to provide what they want
If we are to have Democracy rather than rule by decree from a ruling cabal run by factions
It is time for the people to tell Parliament what it wants from them,not the other way about
And the whole structure needs revision.
What optimism! it's so sad.
But as we know nothing will change,it's all too good a club of swindlers isn't it?
This is not going to end well

 

[oldgroaner]

The wording is very important here. Leave offered nothing. It suggested many things. Most positive. But it wasn’t in a position to offer anything. It wasn’t a political party or in power.

Remain did offer the status quo. People voted against that and all the fear and worry about losing your home, job world war three etc.

Leave was a vote for hope. Once you take that away you’re not left with much.

Leave actually promoted the fears that were attributed to Remain remember?
Leave didn't offer just hope, it offered what were effectively Bribes and promises
It lied,committed criminal acts and misled the Voters, and swindled vast sums speculating on the referendum and afterwards.

If offered the Rich hope of protecting their offshore accounts from being taxed and lied to the poor

 

[Kudoscycles]

What is rarely mentioned is that the Leaver champions,the ERG,are mainly old wealthy men who can see making the U.K. into a low tax ,low regulated environment,it’s easy to see the advantage of a hard Brexit to them.
What surprises me is that these right wing fascists have managed to keep normal working guys on their side....there just seems a blind continuity of thought by some even though it will clearly hurt them badly.....the workforce of Honda and Nissan being prime examples....I wonder whether these workforces are still behind Brexit,even though it could lose them their jobs.?
KudosDave

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Leave actually promoted the fears that were attributed to Remain remember?
Leave didn't offer just hope, it offered what were effectively Bribes and promises
It lied,committed criminal acts and misled the Voters, and swindled vast sums speculating on the referendum and afterwards.

If offered the Rich hope of protecting their offshore accounts from being taxed and lied to the poor

Practically today the question is whether enough brexiteers will take fright and back may for a third vote or whether that doesnt happen and hoc take control of process via indicative votes. If the former i think were heading for a contrived tory dystopia. If the latter, we may be a bit more out of the woods (and back into the famiar territory of dodgy duckponds, backhanders and corporately owned mp's but at least within a customs union or the eu)

 

[flecc]

Nonsense. That’s a remainers fantasy. I don’t know a single person who voted leave that has changed their mind. Sure people are exasperated and shocked at the ineptitude May and co but it doesn’t mean they now want to stay in the EU.

Leavers knew the hard work would be in the first few years of leaving. People knew we would take a hit. They still wanted out then and they do now. Most leavers views have hardened and actually want a hard Brexit on WTO rules.

I agree, I don't think any Leavers have changed their minds.

The change in the polls is all to do with more determination by Remainers who, through a complacent certainty that remain would win, didn't bother to vote in 2016.

The result shocked them as much as it did the complacent politicians, so they won't make that mistake again if given a second chance, hence the 54/46 to remain now.

It also accounts for the obvious Remainer's great anger, many privately knowing the result was mostly their own complacent fault but don't like to admit it. I say mostly, since the expats abroad really should have been able to vote as well, and the 16 plus whose future it is.
.

 

[flecc]

Oddly,and i know many may disagree,im rather proud of the way it is turning out. We managed our rabid right wing. We didnt metaphorically end up with a trump like populist usa, or an olban. Weve seen of populists like farage.In a tortured, embarassing way its becoming a victory for representative liberal democracy.

A sort of "Who needs government".
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I agree, I don't think any Leavers have changed their minds.

The change in the polls is all to do with more determination by Remainers who, through a complacent certainty that remain would win, didn't bother to vote in 2016.

The result shocked them as much as it did the complacent politicians, so they won't make that mistake again if given a second chance, hence the 54/46 to remain now.

It also accounts for the obvious Remainer's great anger, many privately know the result was mostly their own complacent fault but don't like to admit it. I say mostly, since the expats abroad really should have been able to vote as well, and the 16 plus whose future it is.
.
.

I dont agree flecc. Remainers may have been complacent. But that had a lot to do with the fact that they did not ask for this referendum. Cameron the erg and the tories will justifiably go down in history as the authors of this $#@%storm.

 

[flecc]

I dont agree flecc. Remainers may have been complacent. But that had a lot to do with the fact that they did not ask for this referendum. Cameron the erg and the tories will justifiably go down in history as the authors of this $#@%storm.

Of course Cameron and co. are the originally guilty, but if they and the remain inclined hadn't been so complacent, we wouldn't be where we are now.
.

 

[Fingers]

Complacent remainers = Complainers

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Of course Cameron and co. are the originally guilty, but if they and the remain inclined hadn't been so complacent, we wouldn't be where we are now.
.

Well, yes, but how can i put this euphemistically. We discovered we have a much larger number of quite uninformed reactionary xenophobes in our midst. If you knew that in advance, congrats. I dont know that many did. On the plus side, they are - in a morbid anthropological way - an intersting phenomenon. And, critically, we appear to have seen them off for now.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Complacent remainers = Complainers

People just love to play with words, as men at work say. But how about coming up with something a bit more substantial (than this or the refrain we won)

 

[oldgroaner]

Complacent remainers = Complainers

And a lot of us who aren't complacent complain too

 

[oldgroaner]

People just love to play with words, as men at work say. But how about coming up with something a bit more substantial (than this or the refrain we won)

Steady there! he is having to make a silk purse out of a Sows ear remember.

Imagine yourself in his position, you would be offering up a daily prayer along these lines...

"Lord Grant us all a Brexit,
So good, that even I
referring to it afterwards
Will not have need to lie!

Ho bleed'n Ho

 

[Woosh]

Leave was a vote for hope. Once you take that away you’re not left with much.

Leaving is a huge gamble though.
Although once their (leavers) decision is made without sufficient intel, it is to be expected that most will stick with it because that's the British way.
If Leave voters knew what they know now before the vote, many would have had cold feet.

 

[oldgroaner]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/immediate-response-jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-uturn/
"The chairman of the European Research Group was at the centre of organising a vote of confidence against the Prime Minister three months ago, claiming that her deal wasn't good enough.
But he has just indicated that he now believes voting for Mrs May's deal is the only way Brexit will happen.

He said: "The Prime Minister does not want to leave without a deal, the cabinet doesn’t want to leave without a deal, and the British parliament doesn’t want to leave without a deal. It is therefore very difficult to see how you get to leaving without a deal."


Responding to the news, James said: "It was Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the European Research Group, who led that attempt to unseat Theresa May in December of last year, so unhappy was he and his little band of Grand Wizards with the withdrawal agreement that she had procured, that he sought to actually overthrow her as leader of the Conservative Party.


"I'm hearing he has announced he would support that withdrawal agreement in the event of it coming back to the House of Commons.
"How can you go in three months from saying this treaty is so bad, the Prime Minister who negotiated it should be fired.

"And then three months later, saying 'Er, I think I might support it.'.

"I haven't got a clue. Three months from saying this is to unbelievably awful, I'm going to launch a coup against the Prime Minister, I'm going to submit a vote of no confidence.

"Three months later, 'Er, I think I might vote for it."