Which part of MEPs are voted into position by direct votes of the populations in their own countries have you difficulty understanding. ? Unless people of colour go up for election they will not be elected. Identify the structural impediments PUT IN PLACE by the EU for your position to have any credibility.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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Are you happy eith the EU as it stands Dani? Do you think its make up is a fair reflection of the people it purports to represent?
What, if anything would you change about the EU?
For all elections I think 60% turn out is a minimum, in the same way I feel a referendum needs a 60/40 result to be significant.
In some countries voting is mandatory - I am not against that, if you are part of a society you must participate. Or provide a good reason for not participating.
In France the ethnic population is estimated at between 11 and 15%. The MEPs are 9%, not perfect but not bad. Now what percentage of those minorities has received a decent level of education? Enough in any case to hold the knowledge required to represent their country. Women are just starting to get more involved in politics in many nations so I think in time this problem will become a non problem.
You are a liar as I've just explained, since you keep saying we remainers won't acknowledge the EU has the democratic and representational faults you complain of when we repeatedly do acknowledge them, again and again as I did only yesterday.
So let me as a Remainer try again in bigger letters in the hope it finally sinks in:
The EU does not fairly represent the black and ethic proportions of their member nations.
The EU does not fairly represent the female proportions of their member nations.
The EU is excessively governed by white males.
These three are not truly democratic.
All of these I and many other remainers acknowledge are true.
So once again the question, what is the solution?
We're still waiting.
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a few did make the remark that it was said by the conservatives that if Scotland leaves, Scotland can't retain UK's EU membership and will have to apply to the EU. So remainers would have to think twice before voting with the SNP. They are now confronted with the prospect of the conservatives taking Scotland out of the SM & CU.
While I could detect that the SNP does not have a huge support in Motherwell, if the conservatives take us out of the EU without a deal, the SNP will pick up a lot of protest votes, the 13 conservative seats in Scotland are at risk.
Any EU treaty may start over the port wine by those jowly old white men, but then it is sent to committees, 50% of which are chaired by women, then it goes to the professional draftsman..a significant fraction of whome are female lawyers, it then needs to be debated by the Commissioners,then when they are happy, it goes to the EU Parliament, 36.1% are female,. At that stage, and depending on how it affects constitutional status, may be subject to a referendum in some member states. In any event, before it becomes law , it is debated in the National Assemblies of each of the 27 / 28 individual states.
So where is the democratic deficit?.
Because 60 % of EU didnt vote in first place, demonstrating a complete disconnect between EU population and its Government.
There is nothing in JC's offer that will necessarily lead to a permanent customs union.
JC wants a motion for a customs union to be added to our law, not to the withdrawal treaty.
Any future government can reverse that motion and negotiate a Canada style trade deal instead.
That's what I call an easy offer. TM can run down the clock until mid March and say: I am with JC.
My solution is to leave. You want to stay so need to come up with a solution, which perhaps you should have before the refetendum.
Its remainers who need to come up with an answer. Not leavers. Like OG would quickly tell me, its none of my business if we leave.
And, I trully think had EU had any real intentions of changing the problems you now accept (seriously thanks) then they would have done so by now. How long do they need. I know Rome wasnt built in a day but 50 years. Come on flecc.
Does EU recognise need for change. I, m not sure.
Flecc, I, m reposting your post. Hope you dont mind.
If you said this previously I apologise. I missed your clear admission.
Thanks.
It carries far more weight coming from a remainer.
And one question.
Taking this response into account is it not enough in itself to justify voting to leave. In my case it is. In yours perhaps not, but you get my point.
If you said this previously I apologise. I missed your clear admission.
Thanks.
It carries far more weight coming from a remainer.
And one question.
Taking this response into account is it not enough in itself to justify voting to leave. In my case it is. In yours perhaps not, but you get my point.
Yeah I think that right. The SNP will become a beacon for remainers protest vote at the next election but that doesn't mean there is much appetite, apart from the frothers, for another referendum.
Also I think it is important to say that Scotland is not a country in the same England is not a country.
Are relationships in your life usually about taking as much as possible from others and trying to give nothing in return?
As Zlats said. Plus who is deciding that these laws need to be made? Unelected folk in the main. Well unelected from the people. The EU is too bloated. It's greed and ambition has engulfed its ability.
Its not democracy in action when 60% either can't be bothered to vote or actively don't want to.
Something is very, very wrong.
... or the more likely , sufficient satisfaction that they are not bothered. I rarely think or worry about the water in my taps,it just works. The same mindset will no doubt affect other people. Tomorrow's match , the weeks groceries, my children's education ,these are immediate.
Like the vast majority of Europeans I do not stand up in the morning ,look at a blue flag and recite "I pledge allegiance..."
But I do see it as a strength and a comfort, and a benign presence.
Not one of the Cabinet Ministers in Westminster has been directly elected to that position by the people. But they were selected, by the people you elected. The same is exactly the situation in the EU. The Commissioner is the equivalent of a Minister,and is the person who sponsors legislation, but the EU Parliament which is directly elected has the final say.
I can understand why from a UK perspective,you would see the EU parliament as irrelevant .. see the Muppets you choose to represent you. But we take it more seriously.
Then why do you, like May and the tories, promote a deal that is all about obsessive unenlightened self interest and trying to shirk any possible commitment? How do you think the UK would respond if the EU insisted unilaterally on expelling it but insisted on one sided free trade? I'm reversing it in that way to remind you that the basis of morality is to treat others as one wants to be treated.
As I've repeatedly explained, they can't.
The EU only has the power and authority the member nations have given it, at the outset and in treaties since. And as we both acknowledge, those member nations have considerable racist elements and democratic deficiencies.
So they haven't been given the power to dictate who the nations send to represent them, and that wouldn't be democratic anyway. There is nothing the EU leadership can do other than try to get member nations to behave better in this respect, and they do constantly try by setting an example where they can, as Danidl explained in this post.
By way of interest there's a link below of my agreeing with you on racism last year, and I'd previously posted this in 2012 before you were a member. But as ever, a national fault, not an EU one:
Information link
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I've always understood your point Zlatan, and seen the truths within.
The problem is that the EU simply cannot do anything about it, other than ask and set an example as Danidl explained in his post that I linked to above. The cures for racism and democratic deficiencies are in the hands of the member countries.
I don't see leaving and losing all influence as a solution, if anything it just allows the problem to continue with us looking on helpless.
I prefer to head for a united Europe solution with improving standards in every respect and us playing a full part in that.
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