Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Much of EU is plagued with racism far more so than in UK.

But the EU isn't a country. It has no territory, it has no population. It is just a concept, an organisation created by its members to guide towards harmonisation while being controlled and limited in that by its members. The racism that exists is solely that of its member countries

Yes, I see Fleccs point, its not the responsibility of EU. If it isnt.. What are they doing to not appear a bunch of middle class white males telling us how to behave.

They are setting the example that Danidl pointed out and that I linked to, wherever they are able to fully representing the minority groups. But that doesn't include the parliament or commission since the EU don't have the power to do anything about their representation.

Really Zlatan, it's no use you going on over and over again about things the EU cannot influence, not just pointless but wasting your own time and effort. Blame the racist and democracy limited countries where the guilt exists. We all know who they are.
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[flecc]

The EU does nothing to stop even the most blatant of racism in member states. Hungary has been given the equivalent of a tut.

Because the EU can't as I've repeatedly explained.

See this latest post for example.
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[OxygenJames]

I actually totally agree but having zero is "more" wrong.
And I never said we should end up with an absolutely equal balance. I said the folk governing should reflect the ethnicities, race, colur and gender of those governed. To be fair our UK government is a world leader in this respect, yet I, ve often grumbled at the system that put Diane Abott where she is. There is a compromise. A good, fair and equal way forward.
That IMO eludes the EU as it stands. Or perhaps some really think all those white males running EU are acttually the best possible for the job. I doubt it.
I always find it interesting the number of men who insist there is no gender issue within society, the number of white midlle class males insisting racism or elitism does not exist. You dont need to look hard to see gross unfairness in most countries and IMO especially the EU, even tho EU has this image of being some kind of socialist equal opportunity utopia. It isnt.
Much of EU is plagued with racism far more so than in UK. (statistics are available to demonstrate this)
Yes, I see Fleccs point, its not the responsibility of EU. If it isnt.. What are they doing to not appear a bunch of middle class white males telling us how to behave.

But how are you going to do that without 'quotas' and the like?

Equality of opportunity I am all for - but I am absolutely opposed to equality of outcome - and it sounds to me like that's what you're after.

It just so happens that 97.2% of logging workers in the US are male. Are you suggesting there is something wrong with that? OK. What about 'blacks' (god I am asking for trouble here) and IQ? You do know there is a correlation. You do know Asians average higher IQs than we do (we being good old fashioned white caucasians). So you would expect differences in who ends up as top-earning lawyers etc.

So who decides what the %'s should be? You? So if 10% of the population are blacks you're saying 10% of every profession should be too? This is the madness we are moving towards.

 

[OxygenJames]

And no one in Ireland voted for Farage,yet here we are.

Farage is not head of the EU commission or whatever Juncker is head of.

 

[OxygenJames]

You could be and in fact are wrong. I have given you the facts. Commissioners are persons selected by the cabinets of each of the EU states. That is basically the same as any Cabinet Minister in any democratic country. .They are selected by the directly elected members. TD

Whoa - back up a moment Danny.

They are 'elected' by the members - but not by the people. No actual people voted for them - just the people who the people voted for.

So a sort of second hand voted for.

They never had to stand up in front of a live audience at their town hall - or door walk - or answer questions on local ratio.

Right?

Because our cabinet ministers had to do all that - real people voted for them too.

 

[flecc]

I am not sure there is any provision in constitutional law, that requires a Cabinet minister to be actually elected as an MP .

There isn't any, more recently than the war we had unelected Sir Alec Douglas Hume as Foreign Secretary from 1960 to 1963 and then as Prime Minister for a year.
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[OxygenJames]

Whoa - back up a moment Danny.

They are 'elected' by the members - but not by the people. No actual people voted for them - just the people who the people voted for.

So a sort of second hand voted for.

They never had to stand up in front of a live audience at their town hall - or door walk - or answer questions on local ratio.

Right?

Because our cabinet ministers had to do all that - real people voted for them too.

If I am right (again correct me if I am wrong in the post above) - then THIS is the problem with the EU - we didn't actually get to vote for those people - its not real democracy - its too distant.

No wonder only thirty something percent bother turning out to vote.

 

[OxygenJames]

There isn't any, more recently than the war we had unelected Sir Alec Douglas Hume as Foreign Secretary from 1960 to 1963 and then as Prime Minister for a year.
.

Are you telling me there are currently cabinet ministers who are not MPs?

 

[flecc]

Are you telling me there are currently cabinet ministers who are not MPs?

There aren't any currently, Sir Alec Douglas Hume was the most recent I know of, but there can be at any time in our unwritten constitution. House of Lords members often have been cabinet ministers, but they cannot be MPs of course. That's why Tony Benn gave up his hereditary title.
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[Woosh]

If I am right (again correct me if I am wrong in the post above) - then THIS is the problem with the EU - we didn't actually get to vote for those people - its not real democracy - its too distant.

No wonder only thirty something percent bother turning out to vote.

those who vote are governments or heads of state. They send in their reps.
If you want direct involvement, it will be like asking railways users to vote for Network Rail board.
Do you know who runs Network Rail and how much is he paid?

 

[flecc]

If I am right (again correct me if I am wrong in the post above) - then THIS is the problem with the EU - we didn't actually get to vote for those people - its not real democracy - its too distant.

It's intentional that the Commission is unelected since that is not compatible with it's job. Its job is to promote the harmonisation of the member countries towards a single state end and it doesn't operate like a parliament, it operates as a cabinet.

If it did operate like a parliament they'd never get anything done, just look at the chaos over Brexit in the HoC!

The commission members are appointees from each member country, currently 28. Each has a job by mutual agreement of Commission members as you'll see below later. As each reaches a conclusion or has a suggested course towards union in their own area, it's put to the whole commission for acceptance. If accepted it goes to the democratic EU parliament which can accept or reject, so that is ultimately democratic.

The members and their individual jobs are listed on this link
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[Danidl]

If I am right (again correct me if I am wrong in the post above) - then THIS is the problem with the EU - we didn't actually get to vote for those people - its not real democracy - its too distant.

No wonder only thirty something percent bother turning out to vote.

Nobody in the UK voted for Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary. A majority in some narrow constituency gave him more votes than the next candidate,to elect him their MP. With your single seat first passed the post system and with say 5 candidates ,he could be elected by 21% of those who voted, not even 21% of the electorate. He was actually elected by 33% of the electorate. The same with your Prime Minister.,who was in fairness was in fact a popular winner at 49% of the electorate voting for her. .. after the election, the group with the most seats,went into a room and agreed who would be the Prime Minister . A decision with which the Queen was by convention required to accept. So you did not even elect your Prime Minister. The DIRECTLY unelected prime minister then selects at her whim or grace and favour a group of Ministers to serve with her ..Did you DIRECTLY elect them?.

 

[Deleted member 128]

Conversely, I am represented by a wealthy white female tory mp despite voting Labour. Does the EU really have more of a democratic deficit than the Westminster system? I'm less upset about Arlene Foster deciding the fate of f England than about my tory mp (who voted for May's proposal)

I'm in exactly the same situation in my safe Con seat in Wiltshire. I've tried emailing my Con MP, Claire Perry a cabinet minister, on many occasions eg Con plans to invade Syria, the demise of our NHS and more recently Brexit and just get a standard response back basically saying that since she's a minister she'll do whatever the PM wants.

Disenfranchised - "having no power to make people listen to your opinion or to affect the society you live in"

She's totally useless and I'm disenfranchised .

 

[OxygenJames]

It's intentional that the Commission is unelected since that is not compatible with it's job. Its job is to promote the harmonisation of the member countries towards a single state end and it doesn't operate like a parliament.

If it did they'd never get anything done, just look at the chaos over Brexit in the HoC!

The commission members are appointees from each member country, currently 28. Each has a job by mutual agreement of Commission members as you'll see below later. As each reaches a conclusion or has a suggested course towards union in their own area, it's put to the whole commission for acceptance. If accepted it goes to the democratic EU parliament which can accept or reject, so that is ultimately democratic.

The members and their individual jobs are listed on this link
.

Maybe thats the problem. Seeing as the commission is arguably the most powerful institution at the EU.

So to compare the commission's members to the cabinet - that ain't such a good comparison.

None of them had to go on local radio. Or door walk. Or stand up at the town hall and convince me they're not an arse.

 

[OxygenJames]

Nobody in the UK voted for Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary. A majority in some narrow constituency gave him more votes than the next candidate,to elect him their MP. With your single seat first passed the post system and with say 5 candidates ,he could be elected by 21% of those who voted, not even 21% of the electorate. He was actually elected by 33% of the electorate. The same with your Prime Minister.,who was in fairness was in fact a popular winner at 49% of the electorate voting for her. .. after the election, the group with the most seats,went into a room and agreed who would be the Prime Minister . A decision with which the Queen was by convention required to accept. So you did not even elect your Prime Minister. The DIRECTLY unelected prime minister then selects at her whim or grace and favour a group of Ministers to serve with her ..Did you DIRECTLY elect them?.

So I was right - they are not actually elected. The EU commissioners.

Boris won an actual election (meaning Jo Public voted for him) - none of the EU commissioners did.

THAT was my point.

 

[OxygenJames]

I'm in exactly the same situation in my safe Con seat in Wiltshire. I've tried emailing my Con MP, Claire Perry a cabinet minister, on many occasions eg Con plans to invade Syria, the demise of our NHS and more recently Brexit and just get a standard response back basically saying that since she's a minister she'll do whatever the PM wants.

Disenfranchised - "having no power to make people listen to your opinion or to affect the society you live in"

She's totally useless and I'm disenfranchised .

It sucks. You're right. But it would suck even worse if the cabinet had as much if not more power than the PM - AND they were not elected in the first place (which is the situation with the EU commissioners).

 

[OxygenJames]

There aren't any currently, Sir Alec Douglas Hume was the most recent I know of, but there can be at any time in our unwritten constitution. House of Lords members often have been cabinet ministers, but they cannot be MPs of course. That's why Tony Benn gave up his hereditary title.
.

Right. That's what I thought.

We obviously figured it was a bad idea to have the top jobs allocated to people who had not won an actual election.

 

[Deleted member 128]

It sucks. You're right. But it would suck even worse if the cabinet had as much if not more power than the PM - AND they were not elected in the first place (which is the situation with the EU commissioners).

Yes indeed, the House of Lords is even worse.

 

[oldgroaner]

It was just an example. There are plenty of others I agree.
I applaud your previous post, thanks.
It does accept there is an issue. However, I must point out, Frrnch MEPs though they do represent a wider ethnic pattern than most others. (still well behind UK) there is quite a pattern emerging. As it is the extreme right far outweigh (Penn and Son both MEPs) the other end of spectrum. Unfortunately even in France the wider diversity(white female with extreme views) within MEPs has made the real problems worse.
OG, I, ve put you on ignore, and appreciate it if you could reciprocate the blessing.

So the man who forges posts in my name puts me on ignore?
Very droll!

 

[oldgroaner]

Their argument seems to be that we can foster change from within. Except that's never happened in nearly 50 years.

The only thing that happens is the project grinds on to the federalist nirvana whether the people want it or not. Each treaty is done as a fait au complete by the same bunch of elites. The jowly old white men. Or angry old white men.

Because we only joined to rip off the EU and disrupt the way it operates.
No real attempt has been made to change anything for the better