Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

The Brexit protester who threw himself in front of May's motorcade,fortunately appears not hurt.....shades of Pankhurst throwing herself in front of the king's horse,sadly fatally.
All starting to get emotional,next setting fire to tractor tyres on the M20....wonder where that idea came from?....vive le France.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html
Democratic deficit in EU is not a lie at all. Its a fact. Having democratic systems in place does not assure democracy.
Read the article. (it is not biased one way or other)
Can any system trully claim to be without democratic deficit with a turn out of 43%.(the figure for European elections 2009)
Your quotes about White middle class priviliged males completely misses the point,unfortunately thats the same for millions of folk in other classes, colours, races of folk within europe.
Before a problem can be fixed it has to be recognised. You dont even see it when the race, colour, gender and background of nearly every EU representitive is staring you in the face. Compare the EU assembly with even our own HoC.
Cant remember which MEP said it but his comment was.
"If you want to see gender equality and all races represented in EU look at cleaners leaving the EU buildings"
Its not a good position for EU or EU supporters to be in and claim either no demicratic deficit or equal opportunities. Both are inapplicable to EU at moment. Folk denying the obvious only makes matters worse.
Both matters need addressing along with many others within EU.
The EU is in historic terms a brand new organisation. It should reflect tje values and thoughts of modern culture. It does not, it is actially more old fashioned than our own model of demicratic government. Just examine gender distribution within EU. Its actually quite appalling for such a forward thinking body to not practice what it preaches. Examine the distribution of folk from black origin. Barely represented at EU. Its actually quite unbelievable but what is more so is that educated folk such as yourself either deny it, justify it or make silly comments about it.
If EU had recognised these faults, put policies in place to remedy the obvious failures I, d be much more likely to be pro EU. As it is they play lip service to areas that do need real change.

Nobody has denied the obvious, its just acknowledging that the EU governing makeup is little different from anywhere else in Europe, including the UK.

And the same goes for democracy, the EU is easily as democratic as the UK, in some ways more so. You always seem to be confused about the EU's role, often appearing to think it's responsible for what countries do internally.

It's precisely because the EU is democratic that it doesn't do that, letting countries make their own internal decisions.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Political parties in member countries have to put those people on their lists at election time. That has nothing to do with the EU.

Ofcourse it has. And why arent certain groups wanting to go.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-blind-to-diversity-whiteout-european-parliament/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/29/eu-is-too-white-brexit-likely-to-make-it-worse
And thats from the Guardian.!!!!

Saying individual countries are to blame for not sending black, femalea, ethnic minorities etc etc could just as easily be said for our own Government. Besides whatever the reason ir does not change the fact many groups, including females, are way under represented within EU organisation. Tbat in itself is enough to say it demonstrates a demicratic deficit. Folk arguing otherwise is exactly the problem. If people here dont see the need for change... I want out.. It wont change because folk think its fine, when it plainly is not.

Just look at the Comnisioners and Council members. Its obviious.
Why are you so biased you cant even see it?

 

[flecc]

Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, Ireland’s first ethnic Indian and openly gay government minister, is preparing to bring one-million immigrants to the Emerald Isle!

Institutionally racist and homophobic. Varadkar's race and sexual proclivities have nothing whatsoever to do with bringing in migrants.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Fair point. Perhaps we should take charge...

WE? to whom do you refer? which side are you on today?

 

[oldgroaner]

Ofcourse it has. And why arent certain groups wanting to go.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-blind-to-diversity-whiteout-european-parliament/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/29/eu-is-too-white-brexit-likely-to-make-it-worse
And thats from the Guardian.!!!!

Saying individual countries are to blame for not sending black, femalea, ethnic minorities etc etc could just as easily be said for our own Government. Besides whatever the reason ir does not change the fact many groups, including females, are way under represented within EU organisation. Tbat in itself is enough to say it demonstrates a demicratic deficit. Folk arguing otherwise is exactly the problem. If people here dont see the need for change... I want out.. It wont change because folk think its fine, when it plainly is not.

Just look at the Comnisioners and Council members. Its obviious.
Why are you so biased you cant even see it?

Don't you ever give up with this nti EU fetish? the EU does not control what goes on in individual countries, they are the ones that elect officials to the EU

 

[Zlatan]

Thats bonkers OG,and it isnt an anti EU fetish at all. Its reality. This is from the Guardian, the bastion of EU support.

How on earth is that right for a modern forward thinking equal opportunities democratic government. It isnt, and you all know it. The day you accept these real faults might be the day we start moving on.
And all EU supporters ever do is lay blame elsewhere. Individuals for not applying, voters for not voting, countries for not sending. In the meantime the unfairness continues.

 

[oldgroaner]

Missed this one - so whose smart idea is this? Didn`t go down to well in Germany did it..

A Million Parasites for Ireland

“It’s our big vision”, said Ireland’s Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, “for how we want to reshape Ireland over the next two decades.” And what is this “big vision”? A mass migration of a million plus over the next 22 years at a cost of €116 billion.

“We want to reshape Ireland,” says Mr. Varadkar.

Who are the WE? And why does Ireland have to be “reshaped”? Did the Irish vote for that? Are they going to be cajoled and browbeaten with upbeat spin to “celebrate” being “reshaped”. Will they be told, Merkel-style, “We can do it!”? Will they be shamed, Cameron-style, for being “too many white Christian faces”? Will they be instructed, Sarkozy-style, that they HAVE TO make mixed-race marriages?

Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, Ireland’s first ethnic Indian and openly gay government minister, is preparing to bring one-million immigrants to the Emerald Isle! Ireland’s present population is 4.8 million. The immigrants likely will be Muslims from Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. They will be granted citizenship and subsidized by welfare. They also will be entitled to family reunification (chain migration), which will destroy the culture and the country. [This the New World Order is being built brick by brick upon the rubble of the old world order.] -GEG

https://needtoknow.news/2018/03/irelands-prime-minister-bring-one-million-migrants-farewell-ireland/

And where did you trawl this up from.......Breitbart.
Very droll

 

[anotherkiwi]

Ofcourse it has. And why arent certain groups wanting to go.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-blind-to-diversity-whiteout-european-parliament/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/29/eu-is-too-white-brexit-likely-to-make-it-worse
And thats from the Guardian.!!!!

Saying individual countries are to blame for not sending black, femalea, ethnic minorities etc etc could just as easily be said for our own Government. Besides whatever the reason ir does not change the fact many groups, including females, are way under represented within EU organisation. Tbat in itself is enough to say it demonstrates a demicratic deficit. Folk arguing otherwise is exactly the problem. If people here dont see the need for change... I want out.. I wont change because folk think its fine, when it plainly is not.

Yes of course the EU could say that lists have to be representative of the voting population so there should be slightly more than 50% of women and there should be 15% from the different ethnic groups making up the French population. Many countries would only send Europeans because they have no ethnic minority.

For France:

38 women vs 32
11 people of different ethnic origins (Africa and Asia mainly) vs 9 at the moment.

 

[oldgroaner]

Thats bonkers OG,and it isnt an anti EU fetish at all. Its reality. This is from the Guardian, the bastion of EU support.
View attachment 28907

Zlatan shouting won't get your point over for the simple reason it is nothing that the EU can specify is it?

Do you we want them to order their recruits by race and gender instead of what the voters choose?

 

[Fingers]

Zlatan shouting won't get your point over for the simple reason it is nothing that the EU can specify is it?

Do you we want them to order their recruits by race and gender instead of what the voters choose?

Hang on. When do the voters choose who they vote for?

They vote for a party. The individual is forced upon them.

 

[tommie]

Institutionally racist and homophobic. Varadkar's race and sexual proclivities have nothing whatsover to do with bringing in migrants.
.

Yes, we all know that lol,

so no other comment maybe ??

 

[Zlatan]

Zlatan shouting won't get your point over for the simple reason it is nothing that the EU can specify is it?

Do you we want them to order their recruits by race and gender instead of what the voters choose?

I, m not defending the indefensible OG. You are.
Look, the EU at the moment has 23% females within its organisation.Fine, our HoC is around 28%..But the EU are asking top companies to lift that figure to 40% for board members. So they see the inequality but dont enforce it for their own organisation. That is the nature of EU. Do as I say not do as I do.
Perhaps if you EU fan boys actually recognised when and with what EU are wrong with we could get somewhere. But just blaming others or insisting the problem does not exist simply means those such as myself think, fine. I dont want any part of your EU. Its not changing and its supporters see no reason it should. You are being intransigent in your unfounded support of the EU by not recognising real issues when pointed out.
Simple fact is 50% of MEPs and 50% of Council Members and 50% of Commisioners should be female. Likewise all folk within EU should be represented by proportionate number of MEPs of the same ethnicity. Yes, its idealistic but that should be the goal. As it is EU is 50 years behind society when it should be leading the way.
Like I said pages ago, we must all see things from others points of view. I dont think your stance or assessment of EU has changed a jot. You simply defend everything about it, when much needs changing and somethings it does are praiseworthy. We are all capable of telling the difference but some incapable of saying so.
The EU is not an equal opportunity employer and does have a democratic shortfall. (43% turn out proves latter)

 

[Woosh]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html
Democratic deficit in EU is not a lie at all. Its a fact.

while voters equate democratic representation with a government that they can vote out, the EU is not a government.
When it tries to reduce the democratic deficit by increasing power to the European Parliament and increasing its sphere of influence, it gets attacked by those who claim 'the EU lacks of democracy'. If it evolves into a directly voted parliament and an elected government, the same people will say they are the EUSSR.

That shows how deceitful our politicians are.


Democratic deficit
‘Democratic deficit’ is a term used by people who argue that the EU institutions and their decision-making procedures suffer from a lack of democracy and seem inaccessible to the ordinary citizen due to their complexity. The real EU democratic deficit seems to be the absence of European politics. EU voters do not feel that they have an effective way to reject a ‘government’, they do not like, and to change, in some ways, the course of politics and policy.

The current form of European governance is such that there is no ‘government’.

The public are still generally pro-European, but they do not understand the political system that sometimes appears to threaten their way of life.

Disaffection with Europe has been expressed in the low turnouts at European elections, which reached an all-time low in 2009 with an EU average of just 43 %.

The issue of democratic legitimacy has been sensitive at each stage of the process of European integration. The issue was addressed in the intergovernmental conferences leading up to the signing of the Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice Treaties by giving more powers to the European Parliament (EP) and extending the areas in which had joint decision-making powers with Council. As a result, the EP has evolved from a consultative assembly to a co-legislator.

The Lisbon Treaty, has strengthened the European Parliament’s financial, legislative and supervisory powers. The EP has acquired considerable influence in the appointment of the Commission and its President.

In addition, the European Citizens' Initiative was created and the importance of dialogue between civil society and the European institutions was recognised. Lastly, certain Council sessions have been made public to improve citizens' information.

 

[flecc]

so no other comment maybe ??

Not really.

If I was involved I could see the benefits for that underpopulated country in our modern world, but the immigration matter is for Ireland to decide and none of my business.
.

 

[flecc]

And all EU supporters ever do is lay blame elsewhere. Individuals for not applying, voters for not voting, countries for not sending. In the meantime the unfairness continues.

So I turn that on its head:

The unfairness continues because individuals don't apply, voters don't vote, countries don't send.

Notice something ? The three guilty groups do not include the EU.

It's not within the power of the EU to change this, why can you never understand that?
.

 

[Danidl]

Missed this one - so whose smart idea is this? Didn`t go down to well in Germany did it..

A Million Parasites for Ireland

“It’s our big vision”, said Ireland’s Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, “for how we want to reshape Ireland over the next two decades.” And what is this “big vision”? A mass migration of a million plus over the next 22 years at a cost of €116 billion.

“We want to reshape Ireland,” says Mr. Varadkar.

Who are the WE? And why does Ireland have to be “reshaped”? Did the Irish vote for that? Are they going to be cajoled and browbeaten with upbeat spin to “celebrate” being “reshaped”. Will they be told, Merkel-style, “We can do it!”? Will they be shamed, Cameron-style, for being “too many white Christian faces”? Will they be instructed, Sarkozy-style, that they HAVE TO make mixed-race marriages?

Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, Ireland’s first ethnic Indian and openly gay government minister, is preparing to bring one-million immigrants to the Emerald Isle! Ireland’s present population is 4.8 million. The immigrants likely will be Muslims from Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. They will be granted citizenship and subsidized by welfare. They also will be entitled to family reunification (chain migration), which will destroy the culture and the country. [This the New World Order is being built brick by brick upon the rubble of the old world order.] -GEG

https://needtoknow.news/2018/03/irelands-prime-minister-bring-one-million-migrants-farewell-ireland/

Tommie, in what fashion is your posting not racist?.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I, m not defending the indefensible OG. You are.
Look, the EU at the moment has 23% females within its organisation.Fine, our HoC is around 28%..But the EU are asking top companies to lift that figure to 40% for board members. So they see the inequality but dont enforce it for their own organisation. That is the nature of EU. Do as I say not do as I do.
Perhaps if you EU fan boys actually recognised when and with what EU are wrong with we could get somewhere. But just blaming others or insisting the problem does not exist simply means those such as myself think, fine. I dont want any part of your EU. Its not changing and its supporters see no reason it should. You are being intransigent in your unfounded support of the EU by not recognising real issues when pointed out.
Simple fact is 50% of MEPs and 50% of Council Members and 50% of Commisioners should be female. Likewise all folk within EU should be represented by proportionate number of MEPs of the same ethnicity. Yes, its idealistic but that should be the goal. As it is EU is 50 years behind society when it should be leading the way.
Like I said pages ago, we must all see things from others points of view. I dont think your stance or assessment of EU has changed a jot. You simply defend everything about it, when much needs changing and somethings it does are praiseworthy. We are all capable of telling the difference but some incapable of saying so.
The EU is not an equal opportunity employer and does have a democratic shortfall. (43% turn out proves latter)

The political parties choose the candidates. That political parties seem a little out of touch with what the people want is our current state of affairs. The other day it was said that trade unions, despite all the good they have done in the past, also seem out of touch with the reality of workers needs in the 21st century.

brexit has definitely woken the pro-EU political parties up but has it affected the voters yet?

 

[Woosh]

brexit has definitely woken the pro-EU political parties up but has it affected the voters yet?

the LibDems seem to do well in by-elections since the referendum.

 

[Zlatan]

So I turn that on its head:

The unfairness continues because individuals don't apply, voters don't vote, countries don't send.

Notice something ? The three guilty groups do not include the EU.

It's not within the power of the EU to change this, why can you never understand that?
.

So blame anything but the EU.. Thats exactly why we will get nowhere.
If its the case the system needs to change. The EU must take responsibility and get to a place where it is both an equal opportunity employer and government. It must also get to place where it has no democratic deficit. Or are they always going to blame individual countries. Give up Flecc. It has faults. Accept them. It needs to change.
If Yorkshire wasnt represented in our HoC would it be the fault of Yorkshire or the system.??