Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

There is of course an obvious alternative... Cancel Brexit!. Then UK gets.
1. No immediate lump sum requirement
2. Full voting rights and a place at the top table
3. Opportunity to select decent competent representatives for EU Parliament and EU Commission
4. Immediate access to the largest trading block in the world.
5. No Backstop..
6. Ability to influence Global policy.

I can add:
1. the credit card bill will go up at around £1 billion a year
2. one of 28 votes, without veto right does not amount to huge influence
3. send Farage, UKIP and the DUP back to Brussels. They make me cringe everytime they make a show of themselves, inside or outside the EP, like brawling in public.
4. we'll trade with the EU27 anyway, in or out.
5. backstop? the solution for it is for the people in NI to decide. Give them a vote, they may just want to limit the backstop to NI.
6. UK influencer on global policy? I can hear OG chortling in the background.

 

[Fingers]

There is of course an obvious alternative... Cancel Brexit!. Then UK gets.
1. No immediate lump sum requirement
2. Full voting rights and a place at the top table
3. Opportunity to select decent competent representatives for EU Parliament and EU Commission
4. Immediate access to the largest trading block in the world.
5. No Backstop..
6. Ability to influence Global policy.

I think we can get most of that and without being governed by an unelected cabal that wants to phase out sovereign control and lump all the countries together as a Federation.

 

[Kudoscycles]

This guy is arguing that no deal wont be a cliff edge ,it wont be rotting tomatoes at Dover but it will be the EU diligently over maybe a decade eroding the UK to EU exports.
I agree with much of what he says.....not the single dagger knife more death by a thousand cuts.
A no-deal Brexit would hand the EU enormous power: it would decide how and when to introduce new frictions between the UK and the single market, giving sufficient time for firms like Airbus, Nissan or AstraZeneca to relocate production. As recent decisions have demonstrated, even seemingly fixed capital investment is more mobile than many Brexiters imagine.
The EU would set out a timeline over which it would introduce compliance and rules of origin checks on the UK’s most competitive exporting sectors. It is not hard to imagine checks on automotive parts from 2021, pharmaceuticals from 2022 and aerospace from 2023, alongside constantly shifting sands of equivalence for financial services. This would allow firms an orderly departure from the UK to the single market. It will be a steady drift away from the UK, not an avalanche. Moreover, the absence of any agreement would mean lasting uncertainty that would deter future investment. The UK is particularly exposed in this regard: our serious lack of competitiveness is demonstrated by persistently large trade deficits. This means the UK is heavily reliant on foreign investment – the “kindness of strangers” – which would likely collapse. It is not hard to imagine a future government going cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout.

KudosDave

 

[tommie]

wondered why Leo was cosying up to that nauseating EU mouthpiece yesterday - just didn`t noticed that well worn Irish begging bowl behind his back..namely £3.96bn if you please!

Ireland and EU discuss emergency funds to offset no-deal Brexit
Sources say Ireland will be looking for ‘long-term fix’ to offset hit to food industry

Ireland is in talks with the EU over a substantial Brexit emergency fund to offset the damage caused to the country’s €4.5bn (£3.96bn) food exports to Britain if the UK crashes out of the bloc with no deal next month.
As Theresa May prepares for a crunch meeting in Brussels on Thursday, officials at the European commission are already looking at continuous compensatory measures for Ireland as part of an ongoing arrangement that could last years.
Ireland exports €4.5bn worth of food and drink a year to the UK, ranging from beef to cheddar cheese. Calculations by the Department of Agriculture put the cost of tariffs under World Trade Organization rules at €1.7bn.
Michael Creed, Ireland’s minister for agriculture, food and the marine, has said this would be an “existential challenge” for the food and drink sector. He has previously said Ireland would seek “mega-money” from the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/05/ireland-and-eu-discuss-emergency-funds-to-offset-no-deal-brexit

 

[Danidl]

I think we can get most of that and without being governed by an unelected cabal that wants to phase out sovereign control and lump all the countries together as a Federation.

"Thinking " is a very good concept, but" knowing " is a lot more powerful. I am tired of refuting the lies about unelected cabals. Look up invincible ignorance as a concept.

 

[Danidl]

wondered why Leo was cosying up to that nauseating EU mouthpiece yesterday - just didn`t noticed that well worn Irish begging bowl behind his back..namely £3.96bn if you please!

Ireland and EU discuss emergency funds to offset no-deal Brexit
Sources say Ireland will be looking for ‘long-term fix’ to offset hit to food industry

Ireland is in talks with the EU over a substantial Brexit emergency fund to offset the damage caused to the country’s €4.5bn (£3.96bn) food exports to Britain if the UK crashes out of the bloc with no deal next month.
As Theresa May prepares for a crunch meeting in Brussels on Thursday, officials at the European commission are already looking at continuous compensatory measures for Ireland as part of an ongoing arrangement that could last years.
Ireland exports €4.5bn worth of food and drink a year to the UK, ranging from beef to cheddar cheese. Calculations by the Department of Agriculture put the cost of tariffs under World Trade Organization rules at €1.7bn.
Michael Creed, Ireland’s minister for agriculture, food and the marine, has said this would be an “existential challenge” for the food and drink sector. He has previously said Ireland would seek “mega-money” from the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/05/ireland-and-eu-discuss-emergency-funds-to-offset-no-deal-brexit

And the DUP monies were???

As I am continually saying a crashout Brexit will be very painful for all Ireland. The volume of north south traffic on the M1 South or A2 North is serious. The number of NI builders white vans in my locality, the very pleasant Ulster Bank personnel ,I meet on the train, commuting to the UB Dublin offices from Portadown all will be affected. It is just common sense to attempt to ameliorate the damage,which is being done to us by actions outsude our control.

 

[Zlatan]

"Thinking " is a very good concept, but" knowing " is a lot more powerful. I am tired of refuting the lies about unelected cabals. Look up invincible ignorance as a concept.

I, m afraid your concept distribution is dependant on stand point. Fingers could ask you to do same.
We might all get somewhere when both sides accept other side has a point rather than repeating dogma. EU is certainly not without faults, it does by its own admission suffer a democratic shortfall (not all its own doing) and a poor record for equal opportunities. It is controlled by predominantly white male middle class priviliged individuals.
When pro EU supporters start to see and admit its (the EU's) faults perhaps true dialogue might follow.
As it is one side shouting "undemocratic" to other "proving" otherwise is simply going over same old same old.

 

[tommie]

And the DUP monies were???

... the price the Gov had to pay, take it or leave it..

a Negotiation not Begging.... notice the difference?

(PS. and it was for ALL of the people of the UK, not exclusively N.I)

 

[tommie]

another in a long list of reasons why we should jump from this sinking ship, .. it`s all falling apart

France recalls Italian Ambassador after criticism of Macron and Yellow Vest support
The French government have recalled their Ambassador for Italy amid increasing friction between Emmanuel Macron and Italy’s anti-establishment government.

France’s Foreign Ministry claim that: “France has been, for several months, the target of repeated, baseless attacks and outrageous statements.

Adding: “All of these actions are creating a serious situation which is raising questions about the Italian government’s intentions towards France.”

“Having disagreements is one thing, but manipulating the relationship for electoral aims is another,” a French statement read.

Only yesterday, Italian Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio met with the anti-government Yellow Vest movement from France.

 

[flecc]

A no-deal Brexit would hand the EU enormous power: it would decide how and when to introduce new frictions between the UK and the single market, giving sufficient time for firms like Airbus, Nissan or AstraZeneca to relocate production.

Not only that, with the UK out of EU membership, EU member countries could give generous grants to aid those companies migration, since we'd no longer be protected by the EU's anti-competition law that outlaws them.
.

 

[flecc]

When pro EU supporters start to see and admit its (the EU's) faults perhaps true dialogue might follow.

Many of us do and I've posted as such more than once in reply to you. As I've said, I recognise the EU's faults but also see how insignificant they are in reality. Many of the things the Brexiters complain of are falsehoods or irrelevancies anyway.

In my view the overall benefits of EU membership far outweigh any its faults, real or imaginary, and both the immediate and intended future of the EU only magnifies that.

Coupling that with our history of failure without outside help over the last seventy years makes me firmly a Remainer.
.

 

[Fingers]

Not only that, with the UK out of EU membership, EU member countries could give generous grants to aid those companies migration, since we'd no longer be protected by the EU's anti-competition law that outlaws them.
.

Indeed but we could also give them bigger bribes. We could charge them 2% tax etc.

It's a race to the bottom though.

 

[oldgroaner]

brilliant analysis!
Watch!...in fact all you Losers watch it twice, cos you`re really too thick and dumb to get it first time

What have we here? A chap who parrots goves lies that people looked down on
and despised leave voters , something conjured up out of his imagination,only for propaganda purposes and treats this deliberate lie as if it was actually true, he then denies that they were misled, and knew what they were voting for even when the government didn't, from this we can conclude that leave voters are clairvoyant, he then insults all and sundry who have an education, backgrounds of hurling insults of the kind he denigrates on the people who voted for remain.
What a comedian and remarkably here we have someone who imagines this is wisdom it won't be long now before you start to find out just how much wisdom was involved when people mistakenly voted for brexit

 

[oldgroaner]

... the price the Gov had to pay, take it or leave it..

a Negotiation not Begging.... notice the difference?

(PS. and it was for ALL of the people of the UK, not exclusively N.I)

Extortion using threats is what really happened

 

[Fingers]

What have we here? A chap who parrots goves lies that people looked down on
and despised leave voters , something conjured up out of his imagination,only for propaganda purposes and treats this deliberate lie as if it was actually true, he then denies that they were misled, and knew what they were voting for even when the government didn't, from this we can conclude that leave voters are clairvoyant, he then insults all and sundry who have an education, backgrounds of hurling insults of the kind he denigrates on the people who voted for remain.
What a comedian and remarkably here we have someone who imagines this is wisdom it won't be long now before you start to find out just how much wisdom was involved when people mistakenly voted for brexit

It's hardly conjured up is it?

Why even on here I've lost count of the amount of times you and other ardent remainers called people who voted out morons, idiots, stupid, thick etc.

Why lie?

 

[Danidl]

I, m afraid your concept distribution is dependant on stand point. Fingers could ask you to do same.
We might all get somewhere when both sides accept other side has a point rather than repeating dogma. EU is certainly not without faults, it does by its own admission suffer a democratic shortfall (not all its own doing) and a poor record for equal opportunities. It is controlled by predominantly white male middle class priviliged individuals.
When pro EU supporters start to see and admit its (the EU's) faults perhaps true dialogue might follow.
As it is one side shouting "undemocratic" to other "proving" otherwise is simply going over same old same old.

Nobody on the pro EU side has suggested that it not without faults or indeed in need of reform. But it constant lie .(.and it is a lie ) of a democratic deficit ,which eventually becomes wearing. If anything the EU is tediously overly democratic. The decision regarding qualified majority voting is only a belated recognition of that. The rules about fishing are drachonian
Predominantly white... Of course, the majority of the European population are white, it literally comes with the territory. They also have blue eyes.. both due to lack of sun favouring paler skin .Darker skin suffers from vitamin D deficiency in low sun . Pale skin suffers from melanoma in high sun. .
Male... No worse than other western democracies.
Middle class .. yes , generally these are the people with the education . Even in socialist republics, the representatives or either middle class or aspiring middle class.
Privileged???. A new term for insult. .. there is a song by the American comic Weird Al ,who does parodies called" I' m humbler than thou " about Amish.

 

[flecc]

Indeed but we could also give them bigger bribes. We could charge them 2% tax etc.

It's a race to the bottom though.

That's the trouble, and don't forget how lopsided a subsidy battle would be. An EU country would not only be offering the cash to move but also freedom from WTO tariffs and in many cases being closer to the bulk of their market in the mainland.
.

 

[Zlatan]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html
Democratic deficit in EU is not a lie at all. Its a fact. Having democratic systems in place does not assure democracy.
Read the article. (it is not biased one way or other)
Can any system trully claim to be without democratic deficit with a turn out of 43%.(the figure for European elections 2009)
Your quotes about White middle class priviliged males completely misses the point,unfortunately thats the same for millions of folk in other classes, colours, races of folk within europe.
Before a problem can be fixed it has to be recognised. You dont even see it when the race, colour, gender and background of nearly every EU representitive is staring you in the face. Compare the EU assembly with even our own HoC.
Cant remember which MEP said it but his comment was.
"If you want to see gender equality and all races represented in EU look at cleaners leaving the EU buildings"
Its not a good position for EU or EU supporters to be in and claim either no demicratic deficit or equal opportunities. Both are inapplicable to EU at moment. Folk denying the obvious only makes matters worse.
Both matters need addressing along with many others within EU.
The EU is in historic terms a brand new organisation. It should reflect tje values and thoughts of modern culture. It does not, it is actially more old fashioned than our own model of demicratic government. Just examine gender distribution within EU. Its actually quite appalling for such a forward thinking body to not practice what it preaches. Examine the distribution of folk from black origin. Barely represented at EU. Its actually quite unbelievable but what is more so is that educated folk such as yourself either deny it, justify it or make silly comments about it.
If EU had recognised these faults, put policies in place to remedy the obvious failures I, d be much more likely to be pro EU. As it is they play lip service to areas that do need real change.

 

[tommie]

Nobody on the pro EU side has suggested that it not without faults or indeed in need of reform. But it constant lie .(.and it is a lie ) of a democratic deficit ,which eventually becomes wearing. If anything the EU is tediously overly democratic. The decision regarding qualified majority voting is only a belated recognition of that. The rules about fishing are drachonian
Predominantly white... Of course, the majority of the European population are white, it literally comes with the territory. They also have blue eyes.. both due to lack of sun favouring paler skin .Darker skin suffers from vitamin D deficiency in low sun . Pale skin suffers from melanoma in high sun. .
Male... No worse than other western democracies.
Middle class .. yes , generally these are the people with the education . Even in socialist republics, the representatives or either middle class or aspiring middle class.
Privileged???. A new term for insult. .. there is a song by the American comic Weird Al ,who does parodies called" I' m humbler than thou " about Amish.

Missed this one - so whose smart idea is this? Didn`t go down to well in Germany did it..

A Million Parasites for Ireland

“It’s our big vision”, said Ireland’s Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, “for how we want to reshape Ireland over the next two decades.” And what is this “big vision”? A mass migration of a million plus over the next 22 years at a cost of €116 billion.

“We want to reshape Ireland,” says Mr. Varadkar.

Who are the WE? And why does Ireland have to be “reshaped”? Did the Irish vote for that? Are they going to be cajoled and browbeaten with upbeat spin to “celebrate” being “reshaped”. Will they be told, Merkel-style, “We can do it!”? Will they be shamed, Cameron-style, for being “too many white Christian faces”? Will they be instructed, Sarkozy-style, that they HAVE TO make mixed-race marriages?

Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, Ireland’s first ethnic Indian and openly gay government minister, is preparing to bring one-million immigrants to the Emerald Isle! Ireland’s present population is 4.8 million. The immigrants likely will be Muslims from Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. They will be granted citizenship and subsidized by welfare. They also will be entitled to family reunification (chain migration), which will destroy the culture and the country. [This the New World Order is being built brick by brick upon the rubble of the old world order.] -GEG

https://needtoknow.news/2018/03/irelands-prime-minister-bring-one-million-migrants-farewell-ireland/

 

[anotherkiwi]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/democratic_deficit.html
Democratic deficit in EU is not a lie at all. Its a fact. Having denocratic systems in place does not assure democracy.
Read the article. (it is not biased one way or other)
Can any system trully claim to be without democratic deficit with a turn out of 43%.(the figure for European elections 2009)
Your quotes about White middle class priviliged males completely misses the point,unfortunately thats the same for millions of folk in other classes, colours, races of folk within europe.
Before a problem can be fixed it has to be recognised. You dont even see it when the race, colour, gender and background of nearly every EU representitive is staring you in the face. Compare the EU assembly with even our own HoC.
Cant remember which MEP said it but his comment was.
"If you want to see gender equality and all races represented in EU look at cleaners leaving the EU buildings"
Its not a good position for EU or EU supporters to be in and claim either no demicratic deficit or ewual oppirtunities. Both are inapplicable to EU at moment. Folk denying the obvious only makes matters worse.

Political parties in member countries have to put those people on their lists at election time. That has nothing to do with the EU.