Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

problem is they have not really had to run the country for years, instead relying on EU directives

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/03/23/how-to-address-the-eus-democratic-deficit

Very good and unbiased article about point flecc and I were discussing before OG decided to be a troller.

I decided to comment as you were talking rubbish as usual, and doing so is not trolling, you simply shouldn't be allowed to get away with deliberate lies as you do.

Our Government has always been a willing party to all EU legislation and laws that were passed
There is no case of them doing as you suggest, where damage has been done it is not because of EU directives but of mistakes or deliberate stupidity on the part of our Government.
And now because of the mad decision to vote for Brexit the country will be entirely at the mercy of these right wing nut cases.
And you witter on with your non stop complaints about the way the EU is organised?
What relevance has that now?
Like your arguments, none whatsover, we will shortly be leaving the EU so move on and start to worry where your mad decision is forcing us all to go.
How are you going to get a government here that can run the country?

 

[Danidl]

Even in science the truth is reference based. Quantam physics, Einstein's theory of Relativity all have to take into account your frame.. Apollo astronauts came back a few seconds younger than had they remained. Time dilation is all with reference to where and individual circumstances.
A simple example. Drop a stone from a moving train. Relative to train stone goes backwards relative to a someone stood by track it goes same direction as train. Tracing the stones curve produces more discrepency. Truth isnt that simple. Einstein was viewed as wrong for years.

No Zathlan. The truth of Relativity is that the speed of light is an absolute., all the other effects follow from that. The truth was that Einstein was already well regarded for the explanation of the Photoelectric effect and his paper on Brownian motion . But science demands experimental proof not blind acceptance from even a superior intellect, so it was not a question of not believing,but denanding experimental proof. The truth of Quantum theory is that we are limited in the amount of information available to us,so we have to look towards statistical methods. Not a good selection of analogies to throw at someone whose Ph.D was in high energy Astrophysics, even if it in pre history days

 

[flecc]

Ahhh it doesn't matter it's a drop in the ocean. Look at the bigger picture. The problem is corruption is corruption and it festers. If it's happening at the top it will happen at the bottom.

Its universal and the UK is as bad as any other. We have corruption endemic throughout our society, and some of it is institutionalised.

If anything a supra-national body restrains that, though never able to eliminate it.
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[Woosh]

Peter Hargreaves. He has most of mine already.

He runs a supermarket.
I suppose you buy his unit trusts?
they don't have any particular skills.
They cast their net wide, eventually catching some lazy investors.
If you want your money to work for you, invest it yourself.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

EU can only survive by eventually becoming Federal. Sovereignty for each nation must be lost some time down the line.
If you want that, as Flecc does, fine. If you want current situation to cintinue with shared governence you are sadly misinformed. EU will, infact must for economic reasons, become Federal State of Europe. I dont want that.

why not? try, for a moment, to look beyond the patriotic propaganda that may have come your way over your lifetime at the past twenty years. Specifically at the most (and truly spectacularly) damaging events - instability in the middle east, the 2008 crash. Both caused by national (ist) governments behaving in populist ways (Bush's "axis of evil" to get rid of a sadam Hussein the CIA created as part of the cold war; an overleveraged housing market as part of a credit bubble designed to keep voters overindulged and happy, not least by neocons like gordon brown). the nationalist dynamics that caused the world wars - and their racist underbellies - is alive and well (as brexit and trump proves) and will not do the world or your offspring for that matter any favours. Patriotism really is (and apologies for the fat cliche but its true) BS populist politicians feed you to get you to do what they want.

 

[Zlatan]

He runs a supermarket.
I suppose you buy his unit trusts?
they don't have any particular skills.
They cast their net wide, eventually catching some lazy investors.
If you want your money to work for you, invest it yourself.

Havent got any unit trusts. If you invest yourself you still need a broker, chances are that would be Hargreaves.
Perhaps it is a bit of a supermarket, with all benefits that provides. Low commision. Competitive rates. Proof if pudding etc. Stuff I, ve had through HL over past 20 years has aleays given excellent capital growth and more than fair dividend return. (managed 11. 2 %, overall even last year)
Yes, I could easily beat that (dabbled with fx a bit) but to beat HL at moment... You, d be on much riskier investments. Got mates who say they could beat HL.. They do for a while... Then lose loads.. Slow and steady everytime.
You cant compete eith HL.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

But that is the very crux of the thin end of the wedge. And it applies throughout the entire EU.

Ahhh it doesn't matter it's a drop in the ocean. Look at the bigger picture. The problem is corruption is corruption and it festers. If it's happening at the top it will happen at the bottom.

One rotten apple..and if that apple is the most important one. The apple of Kellys eye.....

Well it doesn't take Nostrodamus to see where it ends.

given the mp's expenses scandal, and the uk's extensive offshore tax havens and highly corrupt arms trade with undemocratic foreign powers like the saudis: who do you think has more problems with corruption, the UK or Germany?

 

[Woosh]

The truth of Relativity is that the speed of light is an absolute.

only in our region of space and in vacuum. In water for example, light travels faster than in vacuum. Even vacuum is never a perfect vacuum.
When the universe was created, it is assumed that the initial expansion did not follow our current laws of physics.
Einstein's Relativity is one theory. It needs postulates. It's the postulates that help the theory to be built. If later the postulates are found wrong then the theory crumbles.
Brexit is the same. It's built on a set of postulates: the UK is better governed by our MPs, money is better spent on the NHS, we can have better deals than the EU by ourselves, NI border will never be patrolled etc.

 

[flecc]

cant for life if me understand how you can see EU parliament as a step forward. - - - - - - Whichever way you examine it we are ending up with less control once fully assimilated into EU.

I've explained this before but as ever, you haven't remembered.

Federations usually give far more control to member states than a country's goverenment gives. This comes about through necessity, since a very large federation becomes impossible for a single central government to run every aspect. That's why the USSR failed of course.

A democratic federation has most of it's governing power held by its states, and you only have to look at the world's examples to see how true that is. Take the USA:

The federal government there takes care of international matters and passes outline guidline laws on internal matters. But those internal matters are also subject to each state's legislation, so each state either accepts the federal law or overrules it with its own version to suit itself.

In our e-bike arena, less than a third of the states accept the federal e-bike law, the rest all have their own often very different indivually tailored laws.

And its not just in minor matters that the US states rule, they also set their own age of consent and their own minimum driving age. This has big advantages for their citizens, since if the law doesn't suit, they just load up a Uhaul and move down the road to somewhere that it does. Another reason why they call it the land of the free.

That is where the EU is headed and will inevitably end up, a country of free states setting their own internal laws. It is the only option since the rigid control USSR style federation model doesn't work and the EU knows it and wouldn't try to emulate it. I think they are already learning that lesson even more now, with the difficulty of accommodating the likes of Hungary and and some southern EU nations, not to mention the stroppy UK.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

only in our region of space and in vacuum. In water for example, light travels faster than in vacuum. Even vacuum is never a perfect vacuum.
When the universe was created, it is assumed that the initial expansion did not follow our current laws of physics.

that was then. i was about to add, flippantly, that brexit may have made sense during the roman occupation, but does not do now. when i realized brexit would equally not have made sense during the roman occupation. we'd have remained stone aged tribes dragging carcasses around on muddy footpaths for so much longer if it weren't for good old Julius. and no, i do not hate the british or being british, i'm simply not arrogant enough to be blind to my (and my community's) very obvious shortcomings.

 

[flecc]

Havent got any unit trusts. If you invest yourself you still need a broker, chances are that would be Hargreaves.Slow and steady everytime.
You cant compete eith HL.

You can compete by doing the same. Hargreaves is mediocre and always has been, jogging along on the safe route, thus attracting those too scared to do anything else.

Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not clever.
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[Woosh]

Havent got any unit trusts. If you invest yourself you still need a broker, chances are that would be Hargreaves.
Perhaps it is a bit of a supermarket, with all benefits that provides. Low commision. Competitive rates. Proof if pudding etc. Stuff I, ve had through HL over past 20 years has aleays given excellent capital growth and more than fair dividend return. (managed 11. 2 %, overall even last year)
Yes, I could easily beat that (dabbled with fx a bit) but to beat HL at moment... You, d be on much riskier investments. Got mates who say they could beat HL.. They do for a while... Then lose loads.. Slow and steady everytime.
You cant compete eith HL.

yes, I did buy some shares using HL, I also use other brokers but their role is just that, execution and I paid their £30 or so fees. As for funds supermarket, I prefer fidelity.
It's done by computers, no skill involved. If you want to buy managed funds, morningstar.co.uk has all the stats.
Give me an example where Peter Hargreaves shows his skills.

 

[Zlatan]

yes, I did buy some shares using HL, I also use other brokers but their role is just that, execution and I paid their £30 or so fees. As for funds supermarket, I prefer fidelity.
It's done by computers, no skill involved. If you want to buy managed funds, morningstar.co.uk has all the stats.
Give me an example where Peter Hargreaves shows his skills.

Dont think he does anymore. His business started offering investment advice from his bedroom office. Grown into perhaps biggest financial house in country under his guidance... So he knows trade, economics, how to do deals and what to back and what not to.. I, ve used managed portfolio service for years. Always beats anything I do... Beat it for a couple of months on fx... But I, m better doing what I know and leave investments to HL... Investments dont get smashed to bits by Irma tho...???

 

[50Hertz]

Patriotism really is (and apologies for the fat cliche but its true) BS populist politicians feed you to get you to do what they want.

I was looking at a war memorial in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere last Thursday. The population could only have been 200 at the most. Amongst a surprisingly high number of casualties for such a small village, were the names of 4 young men all sharing the same surname. It’s likely they were all brothers. It made me wonder what motivated these young men to go into the hell of the trenches, fight for something they probably didn’t understand or had no interest in and die an appalling death. It can only be that they were fed BS and lied to by the establishment. The circumstances of the war and reason for it was probably misrepresented to them, and the capability of the enemy downplayed. In other words, a massive deception by the establishment to lure young men to fight their battles for them, and ultimately, to die for the establishment and a cause which they had no real interest or concern in.

 

[Danidl]

only in our region of space and in vacuum. In water for example, light travels faster than in vacuum. Even vacuum is never a perfect vacuum.
When the universe was created, it is assumed that the initial expansion did not follow our current laws of physics.
Einstein's Relativity is one theory. It needs postulates. It's the postulates that help the theory to be built. If later the postulates are found wrong then the theory crumbles.
Brexit is the same. It's built on a set of postulates: the UK is better governed by our MPs, money is better spent on the NHS, we can have better deals than the EU by ourselves, NI border will never be patrolled etc.

Fair comment,..even if there is an error in your vacuum water comment. I would have called them axioms, but that is just semantics.
We observe only an tiny tiny fraction of the universe, and we have the arrogance to believe that it is universal.. The incredible thing is we have not as yet been proved wrong

 

[Fingers]

why not? try, for a moment, to look beyond the patriotic propaganda that may have come your way over your lifetime at the past twenty years. Specifically at the most (and truly spectacularly) damaging events - instability in the middle east, the 2008 crash. Both caused by national (ist) governments behaving in populist ways (Bush's "axis of evil" to get rid of a sadam Hussein the CIA created as part of the cold war; an overleveraged housing market as part of a credit bubble designed to keep voters overindulged and happy, not least by neocons like gordon brown). the nationalist dynamics that caused the world wars - and their racist underbellies - is alive and well (as brexit and trump proves) and will not do the world or your offspring for that matter any favours. Patriotism really is (and apologies for the fat cliche but its true) BS populist politicians feed you to get you to do what they want.

That reads like an op ed in the Socialist Worker.

 

[Danidl]

I was looking at a war memorial in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere last Thursday. The population could only have been 200 at the most. Amongst a surprisingly high number of casualties for such a small village, were the names of 4 young men all sharing the same surname. It’s likely they were all brothers. It made me wonder what motivated these young men to go into the hell of the trenches, fight for something they probably didn’t understand or had no interest in and die an appalling death. It can only be that they were fed BS and lied to by the establishment. The circumstances of the war and reason for it was probably misrepresented to them, and the capability of the enemy downplayed. In other words, a massive deception by the establishment to lure young men to fight their battles for them, and ultimately, to die for the establishment and a cause which they had no real interest or concern in.

There is a good poem on that theme by WB Yeats.. "an Irish Airman foresees his death ".

 

[Fingers]

I was looking at a war memorial in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere last Thursday. The population could only have been 200 at the most. Amongst a surprisingly high number of casualties for such a small village, were the names of 4 young men all sharing the same surname. It’s likely they were all brothers. It made me wonder what motivated these young men to go into the hell of the trenches, fight for something they probably didn’t understand or had no interest in and die an appalling death. It can only be that they were fed BS and lied to by the establishment. The circumstances of the war and reason for it was probably misrepresented to them, and the capability of the enemy downplayed. In other words, a massive deception by the establishment to lure young men to fight their battles for them, and ultimately, to die for the establishment and a cause which they had no real interest or concern in.

Or they didn’t want to be ruled by the Bosch.

Check out that documentary by Peter Jackson ‘They shall never grow old’ technical achievements aside. And it’s a big aside, listening to the words of the Tommies and I think they knew what they were fighing For.

Not sure why my font has gone like this? It’s not on purpose.

The doc is on I player. Well worth a look.

 

[Wicky]

From the horse's mouth so to speak - People / leave voters subjectively unhappy with National Government and EU's handling of Immigration (lots of coverage of Med and French migrant camps leading up to referendum, economic crash (again dissatifation of Govt / politics, big business / banking in general) hence slogans like 'Take Back Control' and a chance for public in referendum to stick one up against establishment in a protest vote esp as Cameron as PM was all for Remain)

Third against EU, third for EU and another third ambivalent and who were swayed by the leave campaign.

 

[flecc]

listening to the words of the Tommies and I think they knew what they were fighting for

They knew what they were told they were fighting for.

N.B. If you click to Edit your post, delete the wrong text and add the missing t to fighing, you'll find it will enable you to continue typing without the underline and italics. I've corrected the for in the quote above.
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